Baseless Next Generation Rumors with no Technical Merits [post E3 2019, pre GDC 2020] [XBSX, PS5]

[Deleted member 7537]

Let the fanboy battle begin.

Btw I’ve thinking about what feature would push me to buy a console again, apart from good audio capabilities, it would be very nice if Sony allowed to install a different OS the way they allow it for PS3 at the beginning but with full GPU access, I don’t know whether this is in the realm of the impossible due to security concerns but I guess you could isolate the rest of the system via hw.

 

[iroboto]

The second console was lost in messaging, so that’s still ?. I guess they may not ship it after all depending on how things turn out.

I would agree that if Navi does not ship naturally with hardware RT, then the biggest differentiator between them will have to be how they implemented that. If Navi does ship with hardware RT, I’m fairly positive it will be the same; perhaps some tweaks but nothing massive.

It does sound like there two are very similar however, it’s fairly clear that they arrived to the same conclusions. Fanboys should keep their expectations in check here, there’s not going to be a whole lot of difference between the two.

Fighting over 0.5 TF this time around isn’t going to result in a 30% performance difference.

 

[iroboto]

At the moment, greatest place for differentiation looks to be RT solutions, if Sony go with their photon-mapping ideas.

For clarification; Photon Mapping would be named after itself right? Like naming convention wise, is it correct to call it Ray Tracing?

What exactly is it supposed to be?

 

[Picao84]

Another rant coming.

There’s not a more uninformed yet brashly ignorant sad sack of shit than a hardcore “gamer.” The amount of idiots dick swinging about needing 8k on other sites is painful.

Unfortunately there are. People who swing "lefties", "fascists" and many other political related terms around without knowing what they are talking about. That's much worse than gamers as they actually vote in things that matter to us all.

 

[London Geezer]

The 'problem' stems from the old notion of 'secret sauce'. I don't think it's a problem per se - ultimately if it keeps people talking, it's better for MS/Sony too - but it is something that was born in the old 'console wars' and that somehow some fans still try to hang onto.

The reality is that 'secret sauce' just isn't a thing, and if it ever was based on reality, then it's obvious that for quite a few years now we've been at the point where one platform can simply be faster than another. And clearly we keep converging to the point where two consoles can have pretty much the same internal hardware.

The 'secret sauce' in 2019 really is what we should call 'Competitive Advantage', and it comes in the form of literally everything else: the ecosystem, the online services, the exclusive games etc.

This continued expectation that Sony and MS will use, for all intents and purposes, the same CPU+GPU+RAM+SSD - but each of them will have their own different, patented solution bolted on and added to the silicon budget to cover their own vision of how something like RTRT should run and look like is just further proof that the dreams about secret sauce still continue to exist. But they are just that: dreams. In my very humble opinion.

 

[Ike Turner]

Another rant coming.

There’s not a more uninformed yet brashly ignorant sad sack of shit than a hardcore “gamer.” The amount of idiots dick swinging about needing 8k on other sites is painful.

These words bring tears of joys to my eyes. There's still some hope left in humanity. Thanks RobertR1! I wouldn't have said it better without having my post nuked by Brit!

 

[London Geezer]

The second console was lost in messaging, so that’s still ?. I guess they may not ship it after all depending on how things turn out.

I would agree that if Navi does not ship naturally with hardware RT, then the biggest differentiator between them will have to be how they implemented that. If Navi does ship with hardware RT, I’m fairly positive it will be the same; perhaps some tweaks but nothing massive.

It does sound like there two are very similar however, it’s fairly clear that they arrived to the same conclusions. Fanboys should keep their expectations in check here, there’s not going to be a whole lot of difference between the two.

Fighting over 0.5 TF this time around isn’t going to result in a 30% performance difference.

No second console according to Mr Booty (great name)

Matt Booty: Everything we're talking about - we talked about today. We're not talking about more than what we showed in the video, and what Phil talked about. Project Scarlett is our console plan headed into 2020.

You did say console not consoles plan there.

Matt Booty: Scarlett is our console plan going into 2020.

https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/...cross-gen-halo-infinite-and-the-lack-of-fable

 

[Ike Turner]

Why does anyone believe any of the rumors out right now, one way or the other? Such as PS5 is more powerful. Such as NextBox is more powerful. Confirmation Bias. That's why.

Don't believe any of the rumors out right now.

Insecure people love to latch on to meaningless stuff... There has never been a better time for video gaming...while fanboying is hitting sky high level of idiocy everywhere like never before...but this literally applies to everything right now on this planet...Evolution isn't perfect...fuck U Darwin!

 

[Rikimaru]

No second console according to Mr Booty (great name)

"Scarlett is our console plan" Singular plan - multiple devices.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

It follows that in terms of budget allocations, both Sony and MS are funnelling their cash and efforts in two platforms that, for now, sound extremely close to each other. Especially when you look at the tech available to them at the same price point, at the same time, and from the same manufacturers.

Given all the similarities, and the rough ballparks we have for the broad technical goals (faster I/O, solid state, 10Tf -/+3Tf) even if they differ in some respects, a few more gigs here or there, a few more Tf here or there, a Gbits faster I/O here or there, these two console, even if $100 priced apart, will be so similar that it'll make no odds.

I really don’t see how AMD would be working on two extremely similar APUs to be released at the same time, yet have one on GDDR6 and the other on another configuration.

The memory controller will almost certainly be designed to support DDR4, GDDR5, GDDR6 and HBM. It's difficult to imagine AMD rolling a bespoke controller for consoles (or just one console), it'd be more effort and cost for no appreciable gain.

The only real wildcard in terms of hardware configuration is if Sony build the PSVR2 hub into the PS5 because that'll eat a little cash for those who don't invest in PSVR.

 

[milk]

You're only aware of the benefits and performance hits of current raytracing solutions, which are first-generation based on existing offline-rendering concepts shoe-horned into games not designed for them. We've already seen new developments such as screen-space secondary illumination.

And that's a mod on top of an engine, rather than an engine designed from the ground up to support intrinsic ray-traced data. The people working in realtime graphics are utterly brilliant, and they will find utterly brilliant ways to leverage this new information. Compare and contrast first gen titles on any console with EOL titles, where new software concepts on the same hardware results in huge improvements, and apply that to your expectations of ray-tracing acceleration.

That to me is the perfect exemple of why I think "HW accelerated RT" might NOT get as much use as some expect. And that's ok.
This demo proves we still can get better lighting in mamy ways WITHOUT HW RT, afterall, all this reshade RT mod id doing is raymarching in screenspace. It does not use HW RT.
People have latched on to this hard on for HW RT in many ways for lack of imagination of other paths for substantial graphical improvements and that was the first next-genny thing they were shown, so they decided that was gonna be THE thing.
What we all want is better lighting, coheseve GI, preferably fully dynamic, detailed, smooth, and photorealistic. The end goal is what matters, not how we get there. If RT tris gets us there, great, if voxels gets us there cheaper, even better. If Screen-fucking-space proves good enough, so be it. But in that later case, although we did get "RT" lighting and our next gen graphics (so, that's a win) but technically the "RT acceleratio HW" itself still went mostly unused in that case, even if the end result was comparatively similar.

 

[Jay]

"Scarlett is our console plan" Singular plan - multiple devices.

I've not read the article yet, but that is easily another way to interpret it.
And to be honest I only expected them to talk about the top model during E3 anyway.

Plans can change though, so it is possible they go with a single console. Them not talking about it doesn't inherently mean that though.

The only real wildcard in terms of hardware configuration is if Sony build the PSVR2 hub into the PS5 because that'll eat a little cash for those who don't invest in PSVR.

What would the hub be doing?
Can't think of anything that a modern gpu set up shouldn't be able to handle right of the bat.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I can only reiterate, what RT acceleration provides is a way to analyse the scene. It is not an image construction system in itself. That analysis will be used in so many ways when it's present, even traversing voxels and providing secondary info from screen-space casts. If it opens the doorway to new 2.5D screenspace concepts, which it might, it'll happen. What absolutely will not happen is RT hardware being in consoles sitting underutilised. That could happen in the PC space, but won't happen in the console space. So no-one should lament its inclusion so long as its inclusion is suitably programmable and efficient. Obviously, if the implementation is gimped versus compute, it's not worth bothering with, although even then if the consoles have it, gimping their peak compute, it'll still be used! Just would have been better off without.

 

[Picao84]

The only real wildcard in terms of hardware configuration is if Sony build the PSVR2 hub into the PS5 because that'll eat a little cash for those who don't invest in PSVR.

On the other hand, them including the hub with an explicit port for it (Type C please!) or wireless support, together with a "PSVR Ready!" Stamp out of the box, might make people think about trying it out. I know we have the example of Microsoft with Kinetic, but there were barely any developers using it and Microsoft themselves showcased it as more of a couch potato device for lazy TV zapping, than for gaming. Whereas PSVR already has a quite broad selection of games, all compatible with PS5.

 

[milk]

What absolutely will not happen is RT hardware being in consoles sitting underutilised.

Hardware Tessellation. And that's one example.

 

[iroboto]

Hardware Tessellation. And that's one example.

Geometry shaders

 

[Jay]

Obviously, if the implementation is gimped versus compute, it's not worth bothering with, although even then if the consoles have it, gimping their peak compute, it'll still be used! Just would have been better off without.

If it's not performant or flexable enough, it could go under utilised.
Didn't some games roll their own virtual texture implementations instead of using hardware version?
In fact how much use did the hardware version get?

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Hardware Tessellation.

It was only in one console and that console severely lacked first party support. We're talking about RT in both machines here, so the lowest common denominator. If 10% of the silicon is given over to RT hardware, it'll be used (eventually). Also, the multiplat engines, Unreal and Unity, will include it for both machines as a common feature.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

If it's not performant or flexable enough, it could go under utilised.

Yes. That's what I meant by gimped. If it is a poor hardware feature that does more harm than good, it won't be used. But that's a long shot. As a feature common to both consoles (assuming it is), it'll be part of the lowest common denominator and one of the feature that enables games to stand out from others that don't use it (leaving that 10% or whatever of the silicon doing nothing).

 

[milk]

It was only in one console and that console severely lacked first party support. We're talking about RT in both machines here, so the lowest common denominator. If 10% of the silicon is given over to RT hardware, it'll be used (eventually). Also, the multiplat engines, Unreal and Unity, will include it for both machines as a common feature.

Tess was present on both current gen systems and when it is used (emphasis on "when") it's kind of bolt-on. The real promise of HWTess was perfectly round SubDiv surfaces and geometry displacement mapping for everything all the time. Perfect level of detail. Every crack and bump on textures have actual silhouettes everywhere. Unengine Heaven demo kind of stuff.
The promise of Hardware triangle RT at the moment is great dynamic GI and shadowing,b difuse lighting and specular reflections, everywhere. Time will tell where it actually takes us.

EDIT: and as a bonus, while we did not get the robust all encompassing tessellation based dynamic LODing and refined geometry of something like Unengine Heaven, we got pretty darn close with simply bruteforcing high-poly meshes and lots of static LODs fading between each other stochastically with TAA cleaning up the noise. Effectively we got our highly geometrically detailed worlds, just not how some expected to.
Similarly, I fully believe this gen will bring us great dynamic lighting, GI and reflections. I just am not sure HW RT will necessarely be the tech that will take us there.