Baseless Next Generation Rumors with no Technical Merits [post E3 2019, pre GDC 2020] [XBSX, PS5]

Discussion in 'Console Industry' started by BRiT, Jun 9, 2019.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Shifty Geezer

    Shifty Geezer uber-Troll!
    Moderator Legend

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2004
    Messages:
    42,985
    Likes Received:
    15,120
    Location:
    Under my bridge
    Why would MS only have software RT? Perhaps we're looking at a situation where AMD's HWRT wasn't ready for the consoles, so Sony went with their own design and MS went with DXR via compute?

    Anyone got a link to how MS described their RT solution? I thought it was official that both hard hardware RT acceleration. We're not backing arguing over what the hell RT hardware means again, are we?! :runaway:
     
    Picao84 likes this.
  2. Proelite

    Veteran Regular Subscriber

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2006
    Messages:
    1,417
    Likes Received:
    744
    Location:
    Redmond
    You should read the posts I linked. This exact argument was brought up.
     
    PSman1700 likes this.
  3. snc

    snc
    Newcomer

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2013
    Messages:
    198
    Likes Received:
    97
    lmao, aren't you too emotional ?;d
     
  4. PSman1700

    Veteran Newcomer

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2019
    Messages:
    2,344
    Likes Received:
    725
    MS said clearly hardware RT in their video.....
     
  5. Nesh

    Nesh Double Agent
    Legend

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2005
    Messages:
    12,168
    Likes Received:
    2,455
    They kind of did that with XBOX. It managed a tiny market share. But worse of all the original bleeded billions. No normal sized company would have continued the support of such product when the first attempt was so disastrous.

    Also there is this.

    http://www.escapistmagazine.com/new...Loses-2-Billion-Per-Year-On-Xbox-Analyst-Says

    But I believe the reason why the kept it is because they saw the long term benefits and how it would have stopped competition from infiltrating their business. So in this case if they didnt continue supporting the XBOX as some kind of trojan horse, the rest of their business might have been negatively affected. Lets not forget how Bill Gates was worried that the console industry was disrupting windows gaming, Direct X support and without them in the picture it would have taken form as a bigger adversary. This is why the XBOX came into fruition.
     
    HBRU and PSman1700 like this.
  6. Proelite

    Veteran Regular Subscriber

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2006
    Messages:
    1,417
    Likes Received:
    744
    Location:
    Redmond
    MS in the only company in position to take a big slice of PlayStation's pie (huge by the way). They don't have any other industry they're in where they have only one competitor, and one that can bested on every front except for brand power. Easier said that done of course, as they couldn't best Apple in mobile.

    Sony's massive success with the PS4 saved core console gaming, and also the future of Xbox.

    Any meddling exec / pm that tries to steer Xbox away from core gaming in the future can always be pointed to the PS4/Bone generation as a warning of what not do.
     
    PSman1700 likes this.
  7. Proelite

    Veteran Regular Subscriber

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2006
    Messages:
    1,417
    Likes Received:
    744
    Location:
    Redmond
    Btw blast from the past!

    https://forum.beyond3d.com/posts/754948/
    XBone at $299 with Kinect 2 would have been the death of high specced consoles because it would have won the generation. :lol:
     
    #5087 Proelite, Jan 19, 2020
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 19, 2020
    PSman1700 likes this.
  8. PSman1700

    Veteran Newcomer

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2019
    Messages:
    2,344
    Likes Received:
    725
    Wasn't it also the 'living room', to take over the living room, or something like that.
     
    #5088 PSman1700, Jan 19, 2020
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 19, 2020
  9. iroboto

    iroboto Daft Funk
    Legend Regular Subscriber

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2014
    Messages:
    9,915
    Likes Received:
    9,281
    Location:
    Self Imposed Work Exile: The North
    MS has never defined their RT solution and neither has Sony.

    MS and Nvidia define hardware accelerated ray tracing as dedicated hardware for structure traversal for the purpose of intersection. After intersection both will return to rasterization or compute to complete the rest of it followed by denoising if specified.

    If someone has mentioned that Sony has officially supported this function and MS has skirted around this, that would be news to me.

    Under MS own definition of hardware acceleration for ray tracing; there must be a silicon in which purpose is solely to traverse this data structure faster than compute methods.

    the realities of DXR is to be vendor agnostic. How it’s accomplished, via RT cores, or via some other method is the purpose of why DXR exists. The only important aspect is that the outcome of using the API is the same regardless of your choice of GPU.

    If the github leaks are accurate that Arden is XSX, those descriptions would indicate that they support a methodology of structure acceleration. In it the indications of ray box (BVH) and ray triangle intersections align with the API.

    the github leak is a function of testing silicon. A compute based DXR implementation would not show up on that test for obvious reasons.
     
    #5089 iroboto, Jan 19, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2020
    Proelite and PSman1700 like this.
  10. AbsoluteBeginner

    Regular Newcomer

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2019
    Messages:
    764
    Likes Received:
    977
    I think they are probably gonna have same RT implementation. Reason why its in Arden and not in Oberon is simply because Oberon, in native regression test, ran Ariel native test. Ariel seems to originate from Navi 10 (their tests suits are pretty much the same), and there is no GLX block test, but that doesn't mean it is not there in Oberon.
     
    Proelite and PSman1700 like this.
  11. AbsoluteBeginner

    Regular Newcomer

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2019
    Messages:
    764
    Likes Received:
    977
    Funny tidbit from regression test (from June, after they had hard drive failure and replaced it with new one)

    Maybe its those guys that tested Flute in Userbenchmark :D (day after someone pulled it down)? After all, it had 13F9 chip (Oberon A0)...and a hard drive.

    [​IMG]

    Also, how they pulled data :

     
    #5091 AbsoluteBeginner, Jan 19, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2020
    PSman1700 likes this.
  12. Nesh

    Nesh Double Agent
    Legend

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2005
    Messages:
    12,168
    Likes Received:
    2,455
    Yes they saw Sony aiming where MS was aiming and they saw that Sony was far ahead.
     
    PSman1700 likes this.
  13. Globalisateur

    Globalisateur Globby
    Veteran Regular Subscriber

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2013
    Messages:
    3,411
    Likes Received:
    2,120
    Location:
    France
    Because it makes sense with their ecosystem strategy already planned for next gen. They announced their first exclusive games won't be exclusive to XSX for the first 2 years. And the majority of PCs don't have silicon for RT. So the best strategy (to make devs work easier) for them would be that all of their devices implement RT using a general API and a performance linearly based on their general performance (like tflops or memory bandwidth).

    And what have they shown about RT for their games ? Nothing really. Hardware accelerated is how they explained the thing, and only using that term. Well that's how they call everything that is accelerated by the GPU using DirectX since years ago (instead of the CPU, back then using GPU for some tasks was new and sexy). DirectX acceleration is a very old term and even litteraly "hardware accelerated" is used in some old APIs (regardless of how it's implemented in the end).

    Finally, recently a paper from their devs about how to accelerate RT using...the CPU (maybe the GPU won't be enough ?) and we know from a known and reliable insider that XSX is not RDNA2 and based on AMD slides: RT will be done using shaders on RDNA1.

    [​IMG]

    I am just connecting the dots, for now and using their own years old language, they have actually only talked about software Ray Tracing. Why do people want to believe MS will have some custom silicon blocks dedicated to RT when they never explicitely said such a thing and have technically only talked about Software RT ?

    Please just someone show me an interview when they state that RT won't be done using "software tricks" or that they have custom silicon blocks for RT in their GPUs. Well, then, I'll admit they have such a thing.
     
    #5093 Globalisateur, Jan 19, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2020
    HBRU likes this.
  14. AbsoluteBeginner

    Regular Newcomer

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2019
    Messages:
    764
    Likes Received:
    977
    ...there is literally a hardware block in regression test specifying Ray Tracing?

    Then again, since MS is actually using GCN cards, maybe you are right ;)
     
    HBRU likes this.
  15. BRiT

    BRiT Verified (╯°□°)╯
    Moderator Legend Alpha

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2002
    Messages:
    14,910
    Likes Received:
    13,072
    Location:
    Cleveland
    Please just someone show me an interview when Sony says that RT won't be done using "software tricks" or that they have custom silicon blocks for RT in their GPUs. Well, there, I'll admit they would have such a thing.
     
    HBRU, Proelite and PSman1700 like this.
  16. PSman1700

    Veteran Newcomer

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2019
    Messages:
    2,344
    Likes Received:
    725
    But didn't MS state 'hardware ray tracing' a long time ago? The same thing for Sony, they didn't define more then 'hardware RT', or?
     
  17. Proelite

    Veteran Regular Subscriber

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2006
    Messages:
    1,417
    Likes Received:
    744
    Location:
    Redmond
    Before the Github leak i would have entertained such a though for Xsx having no hw rt.
    We're getting into flat earth territory after the Github leak. The RT tests for Arden lines up with the patent for hybrid RT from AMD.


    [​IMG]
     
  18. Shifty Geezer

    Shifty Geezer uber-Troll!
    Moderator Legend

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2004
    Messages:
    42,985
    Likes Received:
    15,120
    Location:
    Under my bridge
    Huh? Why would they try to get RT onto XB1? Just leave that feature for XBSX which actually has the power to use it (whether hardware or software).

    When the dots aren't numbered, you can join them however you want. Heck, you can even ignore the numbers and join them to make a different image than the one intended. ;)
     
    Scott_Arm and Picao84 like this.
  19. Shifty Geezer

    Shifty Geezer uber-Troll!
    Moderator Legend

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2004
    Messages:
    42,985
    Likes Received:
    15,120
    Location:
    Under my bridge
    I think that's the case, both said Hardware RT. All reports state RT in hardware. However, I can't find the source.
     
    PSman1700 likes this.
  20. Karmaprof

    Newcomer

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2019
    Messages:
    88
    Likes Received:
    55
    There no proof that Flute has something to to with the Ps5 Apu . I really dont understand why people discussion here ever and ever the same random, nonsense Stuff from the Internet. Gifhub Leak based also on a complete unproofed rumors and its outdated . Also these rubbish Insiders they permanently says that no Game Developner has seen Devkits from Xbox Scarlett and Ps5 and nobody knows the target Specs. Sure , Nextgen Consoles launched in Dec. this year 3 -4 Months before they are going into Production, so around July the final Hardware must be set, and nobody knows nothing?? So on wich Baseground are running the Gamedevelopment if MS and Sony keep all information into a deep secrecy that no Dev have a clue about Target Specs?
     
Loading...
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

  • About Us

    Beyond3D has been around for over a decade and prides itself on being the best place on the web for in-depth, technically-driven discussion and analysis of 3D graphics hardware. If you love pixels and transistors, you've come to the right place!

    Beyond3D is proudly published by GPU Tools Ltd.
Loading...