Backwards compatibility on Xbox 360

[Titanio]

But if that non-negligible number of games includes GoW, GT4, Jak, etc then that 90% number is pretty useless. Whats the point if it doesnt include the games people REALLY want to play? (Fwiw, the impression they had in the podcast was that at least 20% of the games were not TRC certified)

Which podcast was this?

Anyway...what if? It would be sad for those who wanted to play those games, for sure. But Playstation2 software sales are highly diversified over a very large base, it's not like everyone has just the same few games they want to play..

I guess that the my point is people shouldnt make purchase decisions now based on what they think BC will be for the PS3 or the 360 (unless all the games they wanted to be BC on the 360 already are...)

If I'm buying a game now, I'm buying it to play on my PS2. After PS3 comes out, I may well buy based on what PS3 plays back, but I wouldn't forgoe a brilliant game if it did not.

I think the vast majority of titles will be supported, regardless.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

If I'm buying a game now, I'm buying it to play on my PS2. After PS3 comes out, I may well buy based on what PS3 plays back, but I wouldn't forgoe a brilliant game if it did not.

I think that goes against most people's wants from BC though, especially going by talk on this forum. If the BC offers no improvements, it's a non issue. But if, as suggested by KK, thee'll be improvements in quality, there's games I would revisit.

 

[Titanio]

I think that goes against most people's wants from BC though, especially going by talk on this forum. If the BC offers no improvements, it's a non issue. But if, as suggested by KK, thee'll be improvements in quality, there's games I would revisit.

Oh I'm not saying I wouldn't revisit any existing titles on my PS3. But I thought expletive was referring to "strategic" purchasing of software now based on what might or might not play back on their PS3s.

 

[one]

Just as a side note on BC for the PS3. I cant find it but i listened to a podcast where they pointed out that the BC slide from the KK press conference specifically mentions that games must conform to the PS2 TRC (?). Which is to say that the games need to have been coded 'by the book' using the SDK. In the podcast they seemed to feel that some of the better games may be doing something that dont conform to the TRC in order to squeeze out more performance out of the PS2. They surmized that this would make, according to developers they spoke to, quite a few existing PS2 titles incompatible with the BC strategy on the PS3. I'll try and see if i can find the slide they were referring to but i thought that was interesting.

Interesting spin, but I don't think SCE were so stupid as to tout an incomplete feature as the first one of the key features after they revealed the disappointing news of the delay to publishers/retailers in attendance at the business briefing...

AFAICS in the webcast (from around 14:20), explaining this slide, Kutaragi commits unlike another platform with incomplete BC they'll realize their best BC from day 1 especially to remove difficulties for online distribution of games. Though it's costly for them to maintain BC in the early stage, Kutaragi says they can employ various measures later. As for "TRC must be observed", he refers to it asking publishers in attendance to observe the TRC in future games to make BC easier for SCE.

 

[expletive]

Oh I'm not saying I wouldn't revisit any existing titles on my PS3. But I thought expletive was referring to "strategic" purchasing of software now based on what might or might not play back on their PS3s.

More as a selling point of the 360/PS3. Access to the preceding console's games seems to be a decision point for a few in here. I wasnt suggesting people should forego buying PS2 games today if it wont play on their PS3, just that people shouldnt buy a PS3 or 360 based on BC because there are going to be holes in the list. Dont count on anything until you KNOW its BC.

AFAICS in the webcast (from around 14:20), explaining this slide, Kutaragi commits unlike another platform with incomplete BC they'll realize their best BC from day 1 especially to remove difficulties for online distribution of games.

Without knowing what their 'best' BC is, he's not really saying anything there though is he? I dont think the fact that they announced a delay has anything to do with what their BC announcement was. They needed to address BC so they did. Could be that they did it first so people would forget about it by the time he got to the end...

 

[one]

Without knowing what their 'best' BC is

They are not exactly a newcomer to BC... if they say "best" there's no reason not to believe it's as good as the PS1 BC on PS2, and as Kutaragi brags about it, better than the Xbox 360 BC.

 

[expletive]

They are not exactly a newcomer to BC... if they say "best" there's no reason not to believe it's as good as the PS1 BC on PS2, and as Kutaragi brags about it, better than the Xbox 360 BC.

3.1, 95, 98, 98se, ME, 2000, XP.... Its not like MS was a newcomer to BC either.

The PS2 has a chip in it to emulate the PS1 IIRC, it seems like this will be an emulator, which is what the 360 uses as well. To me, thats plenty of reason to believe it wont be as good as ps1 emulation on the PS2. (To be fair, KK brags about everything, it doesnt make their BC any more or less likely to be what people want/expect. ) Why even put the TRC line on the presentation if there wasnt some concern? Even Titanio points out they've said a 'non-neglible' number of games would be affected.

Regardless, youre making this into a 360 vs PS3 BC discussion and thats not why I brought it up. I'm not buying my PS3 to play PS2 games but i know some in here are so i just wanted to make them aware of the fact that they may not be getting every PS2 game playable on the PS3.

 

[Titanio]

The PS2 has a chip in it to emulate the PS1 IIRC, it seems like this will be an emulator, which is what the 360 uses as well. To me, thats plenty of reason to believe it wont be as good as ps1 emulation on the PS2.

Kutaragi has specifically referred to the inclusion of hardware for BC in PS3, and the expense this incurs. It's not simply software emulation.

 

[expletive]

Kutaragi has specifically referred to the inclusion of hardware for BC in PS3, and the expense this incurs. It's not simply software emulation.

Ah ok i missed that. I wonder why non-TRC-compliant games would be so problematic, even with BC hardware, that he felt the need to mention it?

 

[one]

3.1, 95, 98, 98se, ME, 2000, XP.... Its not like MS was a newcomer to BC either.

Oh did they design hardwares to make them compatible?

Why even put the TRC line on the presentation if there wasnt some concern?

Because it's a good place to address the importance of TRC to publishers in attendance. Why not ask them to observe the TRC in PS3 games for cheaper PS3 compatibility in PS4?

Regardless, youre making this into a 360 vs PS3 BC discussion and thats not why I brought it up. I'm not buying my PS3 to play PS2 games but i know some in here are so i just wanted to make them aware of the fact that they may not be getting every PS2 game playable on the PS3.

No, it's not me, Kutaragi himself refers to the incompleteness of the BC in the "certain other platform" at the briefing and what I wrote above about the webcast is what he said.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

3.1, 95, 98, 98se, ME, 2000, XP.... Its not like MS was a newcomer to BC either.

World of difference, as the hardware support for BC has been with the hardware creators, and MS were able to basically just include previous OS functions alongside the new stuff.

The PS2 has a chip in it to emulate the PS1 IIRC, it seems like this will be an emulator, which is what the 360 uses as well.

The chip in PS2 to help with PS1 BC was a partial solution. KK has said hardware would be added to PS3 to aid BC, which implies something similar. BC isn't just a case of Either put in the hardware of the old system Or do it all in software emulation.

Why even put the TRC line on the presentation if there wasnt some concern?

If this was targetted at future products as the Podcast seems to say (according to reports), it makes sense to ask devs to stick to standards to aid BC in the future. After all, Sony will happily save as much as possible on BC, and an easy solution would please them greatly! In the context of the business meeting, it would be worth saying to business partners that BC will be simplified in future by ensuring less hassles with emulating obscure hardware accesses.

I'm not buying my PS3 to play PS2 games but i know some in here

Anyone buying a PS3 in order to play PS2 games is a chump. Get a PS2 instead!

 

[expletive]

No, it's not me, Kutaragi himself refers to the incompleteness of the BC in the "certain other platform" at the briefing and what I wrote above about the webcast is what he said.

Yeah but you brought it up.

Anyone buying a PS3 in order to play PS2 games is a chump. Get a PS2 instead!

Well not ONLY ps2 games... I dont think anyone on THIS forum would be dumb enough to do that.

I agree with what you guys are saying with the exception of the fact that the TRC-slide was a Sony public service announcement for future development efforts.

 

[one]

Yeah but you brought it up.

Sorry but the thread title suggests I can talk about 360

 

[NavNucST3]

[snipped]
Anyone buying a PS3 in order to play PS2 games is a chump. Get a PS2 instead!

That was my whole point, except the ones who seem to want it the most ALREADY own a PS2.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

If you want to play PS2 games, it's silly to get a PS3 at 4x the price. But if you want to revisit old games, hopefully with some improvements, that's a desirable feature that's welcome on PS3. The reason to buy PS3 isn't to play PS2 games, it's to play PS3 games, but the addition of BC is nice for lots of people.

 

[Titanio]

Ah ok i missed that. I wonder why non-TRC-compliant games would be so problematic, even with BC hardware, that he felt the need to mention it?

I guess because as they refine hardware, it may become more sensitive to TRC breaches. As might have been indicated in the non compatability of some slim PS2 models with certain games. The PS3 implementation, and future revisions, may be more strict still with regard to games dancing around TRCs.

 

[Bobbler]

Anyone buying a PS3 in order to play PS2 games is a chump. Get a PS2 instead!

I know a few people that'll be doing that. It's sort of a waste to buy a PS2 now when they can wait a while longer and get a PS3 (albeit probably not til next year). If they've waited this long, why dump $150 now when they can just wait a while longer and get PS3 and play the PS2 games as well as PS3?

It depends upon how important it is to play the PS2 games right this moment, and if a person doesn't have a PS2 by now, it obviously isn't _that_ important... so waiting for a PS3 (to play PS3 games as well) seems like a rather logical choice for some.

Seems like a waste for a person to pay $150, enjoy the PS2 games, and then possibly want to drop more to get a PS3 later -- at least I know a couple of people where that'll be the situation for sure. I wouldn't call them chumps either. For some people, the type that just want something casual and aren't likely to buy any other system any time soon, then, yea, a PS2 would be fine.

Really depends upon the situation and what kind of "gamer" the person in question is.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I know a few people that'll be doing that. It's sort of a waste to buy a PS2 now when they can wait a while longer and get a PS3 (albeit probably not til next year). If they've waited this long, why dump $150 now when they can just wait a while longer and get PS3 and play the PS2 games as well as PS3?

Are they buying a PS3 so that they can play PS2 games, or are they buying a PS3 so that they can play PS3 games and PS2 games and as a BRD player etc.? If the only reason they are buying a PS3 is to play PS2 games, they are chumps!

 

[Bobbler]

Are they buying a PS3 so that they can play PS2 games, or are they buying a PS3 so that they can play PS3 games and PS2 games and as a BRD player etc.? If the only reason they are buying a PS3 is to play PS2 games, they are chumps!

They'll be buying it because it has PS2 B/C initially -- but they'll be playing PS3 games too, no doubt. If it didn't have B/C they'd be waiting, is what I'm saying. They are technically "buying a PS3 in order to play PS2 games" though.

I see what you mean though, but the original wording threw me for a loop. If they were exclusively going to be playing PS2 games and not use anything else on the PS3, then that's just silly... but I can't imagine that happening at all. Unless the upgrade in visuals is actually quite awesome and there isn't any good PS3 games ever and good PS2 games continue to be made, etc. =p

 

[rounin]

Regardless, youre making this into a 360 vs PS3 BC discussion and thats not why I brought it up. I'm not buying my PS3 to play PS2 games but i know some in here are so i just wanted to make them aware of the fact that they may not be getting every PS2 game playable on the PS3.

It certainly seems to me that you were trying to bring down PS3's potential BC capability down to Xbox level and hence this whole PS3 vs Xbox BC discussion.

In the end, since Sony has already announced some sort of hardware support in their implementation, plus based on their experience in implementing BC in this field (hardware + software amalgamation with less than 1% incompatibility in their last implementation), it is only reasonable to expect that they will surpass (understatement ? ) X360 "Backwards compatibility".