ATI to launch Radeon 9500 and 9700 on the 18th

[Sabastian]

Well, some time ago, Dave (I guess) posted an assumtion/expectation by PVR about the R300 manufacturing costs based on TSMC pricing. It was well over 100 USD/chip... !

$100 USD per chip!! Thats expensive. Geesh nvidia pays approx $40 dollars USD for the Xbox chipset at the .15micron process and that is last years pricing AFAIK. So ATi is paying more then twice as much for one R300 core? IMO that is a little high but I may be wrong.

I must have missed that. Do you still have to source?

It was a part of an old news release somewhere. Not sure now if it was related to the .15um process or not. IIRC cost reduction was in the range of 15%. But the news was that both UMC and TSMC had lowered their prices. I will look around to see if I can find the article can't remmember where it was though.

 

[Dave Baumann]

So ATi is paying more then twice as much for one R300 core?

Well, there is roughly twice the silicon used - and you by by wafer, not by chip.

 

[up]

Could a 9700 adress 256MB and is there a limit?
up

 

[Sabastian]

So ATi is paying more then twice as much for one R300 core?

Well, there is roughly twice the silicon used - and you by by wafer, not by chip.

Hrm not sure how many transistors are included in the integrated sound on the Xbox but the GPU is similiar to the GF4 Ti 4400 in performance. So I am assuming that the XGPU carries nearly 63 million transistors + the integrated sound which is considerably more then half. But Nvidia may have some sort of deal with TSMC that I am not privy to. I was mearly quoting mephistos post with regards to approx how much per chip.

 

[Sabastian]

Could a 9700 adress 256MB and is there a limit?
up

IIRC it does have the capacity. But this may be a recollection from some old gossip.

 

[GetStuff]

So ATi is paying more then twice as much for one R300 core?

Well, there is roughly twice the silicon used - and you by by wafer, not by chip.

Hrm not sure how many transistors are included in the integrated sound on the Xbox but the GPU is similiar to the GF4 Ti 4400 in performance. So I am assuming that the XGPU carries nearly 63 million transistors + the integrated sound which is considerably more then half. But Nvidia may have some sort of deal with TSMC that I am not privy to. I was mearly quoting mephistos post with regards to approx how much per chip.

What do you mean by + the integrated sound? AFAIK the sound logic is aboard a separate chip NVIDIA calls the MCP.

 

[sireric]

Could a 9700 adress 256MB and is there a limit?
up

The FireGL version of the 9700 comes with 256MB, so it's pretty safe to assume that it can

 

[Grall]

Why isn't anyone speculating wether the 9500 will have a 4x32 bit crossbar memory controller or a 2x64-bit (assuming memory width will be 128 bits)?


*G*

 

[ben6]

The 9700 can address up to 256MB

 

[Humus]

Dunno, I'm more inclined to follow Russ' line of thinking. It only makes sense if ATI know/knew that a substantial number of R300 chip will have flaws in a pipeline (block). Otherwise it is as Russ says, rather expensive to sell that 110 m transitor behemoth at smaller margins. A new tapeout with 4 pipe and pin out for a 128 bit bus should be cheaper in the long run - and I think that ATI want this R 9500 to last more than half a year, right?

Well, between the option to sell the flawed chip as a R9500 or not sell it at all, I think the former would be considered more economical. I don't know anything about the R9700 yields, so let's just pull a number out of my ass , I think it's realistic that say 40% of the chips are fully functional, and 30% are flawed in such a way that they can be used as a R9500. As long as the chip is new and yields are relatively low this should work fine, but I'm certain they have a real R9500 design to put to use once the yield has improved.

 

[noko]

We should be able to tell once the VPU is released by ATI. Maybe the Radeon 9500 VPU is virtually half the R300 chip with almost half the transistors, half of the memory controller of the R300 addressing two 64bit channels. I wonder how many vertex shaders it will have? 4 or 2?

It doesn't seem like ATI would waste half of a chip virtually to sell to a cheaper market, but who knows.

 

[Humus]

Of course they wont cripple fully working R9700 chips, only those who failed validation.

 

[Dave Baumann]

I wonder how many vertex shaders it will have? 4 or 2?

I've heard four, but thats not official.

Of course they wont cripple fully working R9700 chips, only those who failed validation.

Well, you see, thats the issue. 9500's are undoubtedly going to be more popular than 9700's (looks at sales of 4200 in comparison to 4400/4600 after it was released) - if it is based off the same core (but with non-working parts) if they don't have enough R300's failing the 9700 grade they will have to sue fully working 9700's to meet the demand.

 

[Entropy]

Well, you see, thats the issue. 9500's are undoubtedly going to be more popular than 9700's (looks at sales of 4200 in comparison to 4400/4600 after it was released) - if it is based off the same core (but with non-working parts) if they don't have enough R300's failing the 9700 grade they will have to sue fully working 9700's to meet the demand.

The 4200 is identical to the 4600 apart from core and memory speeds.
Since we are hypothesizing from the premise that this will NOT be the case between the 9500 and the 9700, I'm not sure that "9500's are undoubtedly going to be more popular than 9700's" is a necessarily a valid assumption.

Entropy

 

[Dave Baumann]

The 4200 is identical to the 4600 apart from core and memory speeds.
Since we are hypothesizing from the premise that this will NOT be the case between the 9500 and the 9700, I'm not sure that "9500's are undoubtedly going to be more popular than 9700's" is a necessarily a valid assumption.

a.) Common sense would indicate that the cheaper 9500’s will be more popular because they are at a more attainable price point to a wider variety of people. A recent practical example of this is 4200.

b.) There are actually two hypothesis here: 1.) they are different chips, 2.) they are the same chips but that they are using the ones that fail validation for 9700 and are having some pipelines disabled – ergo in case two the example of 4600/4200 is valid since they are the same chip (hence same cost to ATI) but this time they would have both pipelines disabled and probably clock speed differences. Humus said “Of course they wont cripple fully working R9700 chips, only those who failed validation.â€￾ indicating that his line of thought in that post was that they would actually be the same chip.

the point I'm making is that if they are using the same chip with pipes disabled then they either have to have a very high failure rate and some pipelines in R300 chips to meet the probable demand of 9500, or they would have to start using decent R300's to meet that demand.

 

[Humus]

The 9700 has been out for a while already, it has sold in a million+ units, so I'd guess that ATi already has close to a million chips or thereabout who can be used for 9500 chips.
This wont hold forever though, so they most likely have a 9500 design too they'll put to use once needed.

 

[RussSchultz]

And you're making this guess solely on the thought that any yeild fallout for 9700 is a good 9500?

 

[mboeller]

this was posted at the forum of 3Dcenter.de :

Model: EVIL COMMANDO X (Model XR95-B3)
Radeon 9500 64MB Best Buy Edition

EVIL COMMANDO X -based on the RADEON 9500 delivers the first DX9 with latest AGP 8x technology and leads performance in every high-end category. Through a combination of incredible 3D rendering performance, sophisticated real-time visual effects, unsurpassed image quality and cutting-edge video features, it takes the PC Gaming and entertainment experience to a totally new level beyond user expectation at a good premium.

Specification

* Powered by the AGP 8x RADEON 9500 Visual Processing Unit (VPU).
* Complete DirectX 9.0 support for precedented realism and sophisticated visual effects.
* SMOOTHVISION 2.0 technology provides new levels of image quality with advanced full-scene anti-aliasing (FSAA) and anisotropic filtering.
* Revolutionary new video features including VIDEOSHADER and FULLSTREAM technologies.
* 128-bit memory interface of the RADEON 9500 utilizes the latest HYPER Zâ„¢ III bandwidth-conserving technology and provides end users with faster graphics performance.
* Supports 64MB of high speed double data rate (DDR) memory @550Mhz clock speed.
* Compliant to the AGP 3.0 specification by Intel Corporation supports the corresponding technology, AGP 8X, doubles the peak bandwidth capability of the AGP bus to 2.1GB/s, while retaining compatibility with the previous-generation AGP 4X technology.
* Featuring ATI -Industry-leading software suite for the best enhancement and accelerate the ultimate visual experience.
* First 8-pixel pipeline architecture provides top 3D performance for both Direct3D and OpenGL games and applications.
* Display configuration supports CRT, DVI-I & TV-Out (PAL/NTSC).
* Multi-display configuration support with ATI HYDRAVISION software.
* Industry-leading hardware DVD video playback with software DVD player support.
* Supports 3D resolutions (32-bit color) up to 2048x1536.
* Radeon 9500 ATI SMARTSHADER 2.0 technology, supports Microsoft DirectX 9.0 and the latest OpenGL functionality allowing gamers to experience complex, movie-quality effects in next-generation 3D games and applications.

3D Features

* Four parallel rendering pipelines.
* Four parallel geometry engines.
* AGP 8x technology support.
* SMARTSHADER 2.0.
* Programmable pixel and vertex shaders.
* 16 textures per pass.
* Pixel shaders up to 160 instructions with 128-bit floating point precision
* Vertex shaders up to 1024 instructions with flow control.
* Multiple render target support.
* Shadow volume rendering acceleration.
* High precision 10-bit per channel frame buffer support.
* Supports DirectX 9.0 and the latest version of OpenGL.
* SMOOTHVISION 2.0.
* 2x/4x/6x full scene anti-aliasing modes.
* Adaptive algorithm with programmable sample patterns.
* 2x/4x/8x/16x anisotropic filtering modes.
* Adaptive algorithm with bi-linear (performance) and tri-linear (quality) options.
* ATI latest HYPER Z III support.
* 3-level Hierarchical Z-Buffer with early Z test.
* Lossless Z-Buffer compression (up to 24:1)
* Fast Z-Buffer Clear.
* TRUFORM 2.0.
* 2nd generation N-Patch higher order surface support.
* Discrete and continuous tessellation levels per polygon.
* Displacement mapping.
* VIDEOSHADER.
* Seamless integration of pixel shaders with video.
* FULLSTREAM video de-blocking technology for Internet Video.
* Noise removal filtering for captured video.
* MPEG-2 decoding with motion compensation, iDCT and color space conversion.
* All-format DTV/HDTV decoding.
* YPrPb component output.
* Adaptive de-interlacing and frame rate conversion.
* Dual integrated display controllers.
* Dual integrated 10-bit per channel 400 MHz DACs.
* Integrated 165 MHz TMDS transmitter (DVI & HDCP compliant).
* Integrated TV Output support up to 1024x768 resolution (PAL/NTSC)
* Optimized for Pentium 4 SSE2 and AMD Athlon 3Dnow!
* PC 2002 compliant.

Revolutionary New Video Features

* Unique VIDEOSHADER engine uses programmable pixel shaders to accelerate video processing and provide better- looking visuals.
* ATI new FULLSTREAM technology removes blocky artifacts from Streaming and Internet video and provides sharper image quality.

Operating Systems Support

* Windows XP
* Windows 2000
* Windows Me

Note : NT Service Pack 3 supports AGP devices, but does not provide support for AGP Texturing.

Display Support

* VGA connector for analog CRT
* S-video or composite connector for TV / VCR
* DVI-I connector for digital CRT or flat panel
* Independent resolutions and refresh rates for any two connected displays

System Requirements

* Intel Pentium 4/III/II/Celeron, AMD K6/Duron/Athlon/Athlon XP or compatible with AGP 2X (3.3v), 4X (1.5V), 8X (0.8v) or Universal AGP 3.0 bus configuration (2X/4X/8X).
* 128MB of system memory
* Installation software requires CD-ROM drive
* DVD playback requires DVD drive
* Minimum 250 watts power supply or above.

Additional Power Connection Requirement.

* The Radeon 9500 must be connected to the computer power supply to meet its performance and high-speed memory requirements.
* In order to supply the ATI Graphics Accelerator card with the necessary power, we have included the Power Extension Cable.
* Use the Power Extension Cable to connect the Radeon 9700 to the computer hard Drive power connector.

Installation Procedure
* Remove the power cable from the hard drive .
* Connect the 4-pin connector of the Power extension Cable to the Radeon 9500 power connector.
* Connect the Power Extension Cable from the Radeon 9500 card to the power supply connector.
* Connect the Power Extension Cable to the Hard Drive connector.

Modes Tables

2D DISPLAY MODES
Resolutions, Colors and Maximum Refresh Rates (Hz) in 256, 65K or 16.7M colors
Monitor Resolution Refresh Rate (Hz)
640x480 120 Hz
800x600 120Hz
1024x768 120Hz
1152x864 120Hz
1280x1024 120Hz
1600x1200 85Hz
1920x1080 75Hz
1920x1200 75Hz
1920x1440 75Hz
2048x1536 60Hz

3D Resolution and Color Modes

Maximum 3D Resolutions (128M Frame Buffer)
Resolution Colors
2048 x 1536 16.7M
2048 x 1536 65K


Accessories

* 1 set A/V cable / S-Video Cable.
* Manual.
* CD Driver with S/W DVD player.
* Power Extension cable.
* Retail Pack.
* DVI to CRT Dongle.
* S-video to AV converter.


Important Notice

Evil Commando X Radeon 9500 are tested and certified to run on AGP 8x Motherboard and are backward compatible with existing AGP 4x Motherboard. Earlier revision of AGP 8x Motherboard manufactured should be updated with latest BIOS from their manufacturers service support web-site to compliant with the final release of the Intel AGP 3.0 specification.

Note : Specification is subject to changes without notice.



I don't know if this is new / old / correct / or not

 

[RussSchultz]

* First 8-pixel pipeline architecture provides top 3D performance for both Direct3D and OpenGL games and applications.
...

* Four parallel rendering pipelines.
* Four parallel geometry engines.

Something seems a little out of whack.

 

[Entropy]

The 4200 is identical to the 4600 apart from core and memory speeds.
Since we are hypothesizing from the premise that this will NOT be the case between the 9500 and the 9700, I'm not sure that "9500's are undoubtedly going to be more popular than 9700's" is a necessarily a valid assumption.

a.) Common sense would indicate that the cheaper 9500’s will be more popular because they are at a more attainable price point to a wider variety of people. A recent practical example of this is 4200.

A recent counterexample is the nVidia GF4MX460. Cheaper, but without a niche to fill in the market.

If the reports of 4 pipes, lower GPU clock and 128-bit bus are all true, the 9500 will be less than half 9700 performance. In which case the price will have to drop quite low (and where would that put the 9000?), or the 9500 will find itself underperforming the new 4200s significantly in most cases, and still cost more. Not a splendid market situation either way.

But the latter would certainly keep demand down, which would give the salvaging-failed-9700s theory some chance of being valid.

Entropy