ATI is going to include Hardware DRM

[Druga Runda]

As far as I'm concerned those companies who support DRM are the spawn of the devil and deserve their software to be pirated.

Capitalism at it's worst, it's like Marxism but instead of having a single government telling you what to do, you have corporations telling you what to do.

So what's the difference between capitalism and communism? There is none.

and I agree with you 100%

sadly both the corpoprations and the "communist" political structure have the same goals, it is only that corporations have a lot of other hurdles to go trough before superimposing themselves upon your time/freedom.

This is just one more step in the correct direction for them. New definition of ownership. You can do with the stuff they sell you only what they let you do. So this is the "extended hand" of the owner that prevents you to enjoy your product (and god forbid share it with someone) as you see fit. Invasion of privacy pure and simple, but this is all fine as it helps collect more almighty dollars for them which was used to bribe the politicians to allow for such actions in the first place.

Perfect example of synergy of politics and lobbying in helping redefine old social structures in the name of making more money for the "donators"...

 

[_xxx_]

I'd be perfectly okay if they would start using media which are 100% proprietary. Let's say a new kind of DVD, let's name it ZVD which you can only use with ZVD players. You can't buy ZVD media, there are no ZVD burners, no PC-hardware for ZVD. So you'll be forced to buy an original. And own it as well.

Just a thought, I know it's unrealistic...

 

[Druga Runda]

I'd be perfectly okay if they would start using media which are 100% proprietary. Let's say a new kind of DVD, let's name it ZVD which you can only use with ZVD players. You can't buy ZVD media, there are no ZVD burners, no PC-hardware for ZVD. So you'll be forced to buy an original. And own it as well.

Just a thought, I know it's unrealistic...

and it would sell as??? sonys propriatery walkman probably

that is the whole point, people do not want such tech, corporations do, so they have to create a "cartel" of sorts to get an agreement and push it onto the consumers (backed up by the $$$ to create adequate laws to enforce it) as they are so powerfull they can do it, and than the consumer will have it superimposed on him without choice, as after all they are "breaking the law" otherwise.

So the end result is we have DRM, and corporations have estabilished the "device" that enables them to control what the owner of the product does with it. The good part is that the developing world might seize that opportunity and start to create different content without such devices that will still supply the market without artificial restrictions and therefore threaten the current racket existing in the developed world, which might force them to change to the "natural" way of doing stuff, ie make money off the existing technologies and not trying to constrict the development and regulate the market in order to increase their profits.

 

[martrox]

Guys, you can piss and moan as much as you like, but facts are that everyone will buy into this if they want HD content...... Want to blame someone? Well, look in the mirror...........

BTW, I'm not happy about it either....but you could see this coming from a mile away........ Just ask LIGHTNING UK!

http://www.afterdawn.com/news/archive/6501.cfm[/u][/i]

 

[_xxx_]

Want to blame someone? Well, look in the mirror...........

We know very well that the (artificial) high prices for CD's and DVD's is what drives piracy to such high levels, so I have no probs looking in the mirror. Lower the prices and you'll cut piracy in half instantly.

 

[martrox]

I agree with the pricing thing....but I'm talking facts here. Fact is, they are going to charge as much as they can, and protect their profits as heavy handed as they can. They have the money and they have the influence...... short of a revolution and eating the rich, that's the way it is and that's the way it will be.......

And again....I'm not happy with it either........

 

[Bouncing Zabaglione Bros.]

yeah, I should burn in hell for trying to use a product which I bought and payed tax over...

Hey, just because you bought the product, it doesn't mean you have the right to use it - the content still belongs to the producers and you just licence it from them. Of course if the physical media gets lost, stolen or damaged, then the product belongs you, and you've got no rights to get a replacement of the content that you have already paid to licence. Of course you have no rights to make backups, and are actively banned from doing so by industry sponsored laws and technical barriers.

Movie and music companies want to have their cake and eat it. What's their's is their's, and what's your's is their's too.

 

[ANova]

Want to blame someone? Well, look in the mirror...........

We know very well that the (artificial) high prices for CD's and DVD's is what drives piracy to such high levels, so I have no probs looking in the mirror. Lower the prices and you'll cut piracy in half instantly.

This is what is so hilarious. They rack up the costs to maximize profit and then wonder why people are pirating. Then instead of lowering prices they create DRM to force their prices and additional restrictions on people.

Just amazing.

 

[Druga Runda]

Want to blame someone? Well, look in the mirror...........

We know very well that the (artificial) high prices for CD's and DVD's is what drives piracy to such high levels, so I have no probs looking in the mirror. Lower the prices and you'll cut piracy in half instantly.

This is what is so hilarious. They rack up the costs to maximize profit and then wonder why people are pirating. Then instead of lowering prices they create DRM to force their prices and additional restrictions on people.

Just amazing.

that is called the exercise of power

 

[CMAN]

I thought the key was to NOT buy something if it was overpriced. I didn't know stealing was the key.

If it was anything else, people would be locked away. Why has it become acceptable to steal that stuff? A Ferrari is way overpriced, but I dont' steal them. A Radeon X850XT PE is way overpriced, but I dont' steal one. I buy something that is more affordable. If you guys were truly upset about the price of the CD's and DVD's you would refuse to buy them. By stealing them, you give the industries an excuse to keep their prices high. Now they just blame the people who steal. I think you guys just use price as an excuse to justify your theft, even thoug you'd still steal even if they were cheaper.

 

[ANova]

LOL, and you guys justify higher prices and DRM by using the stealing argument. Downloading something is not the same as stealing a car. Software is virtual, meaning it can be duplicated infinitely at very little to no cost whereas such is not possible with something like a car. How do you think MS gained all it's money? The only costs are the man hours to develop the software and the packaging and shipping, which they don't even have to do with large distribution corporations like Dell, then they charge $200-$300 per PC. What that means is exponential profit with very small R&D costs as opposed to a company like Ferrari.

that is called the exercise of power

The consumers have the power, not these companies. However, if people act like sheep and listen to whatever these companies tell us they might as well have the power.

 

[LeGreg]

I think you guys just use price as an excuse to justify your theft, even thoug you'd still steal even if they were cheaper.

It's the thing you don't understand. I don't steal. I rent my movies, buy them, go to the theatre and pay for it. I buy my video games (on PC and Xbox). I even pay my taxes.

You can be against the way the industry is going and not be a thief. Because a PC locked down is not going to be a good thing for anyone.

 

[martrox]

I'm not talking philosophy here guys, I'm talking reality. DRM will be/is the reality, right or wrong.

Yes,philosophically it really sucks, but that's the way it is and is going to be......if you have to blame someone, blame the media companies.......not the hardware. I seriously doubt any hardware company enjoys adding something that costs them money - that they then pass on to the consumer - that takes away from the capabilities of their products......

 

[Bouncing Zabaglione Bros.]

I think you guys just use price as an excuse to justify your theft, even thoug you'd still steal even if they were cheaper.

It's the thing you don't understand. I don't steal. I rent my movies, buy them, go to the theatre and pay for it. I buy my video games (on PC and Xbox). I even pay my taxes.

You can be against the way the industry is going and not be a thief. Because a PC locked down is not going to be a good thing for anyone.

It doesn't matter what you do or don't do because you will be considered a thief by the industry anyway. That's why you get hit for extra taxes when you buy a blank CD to back up your legally bought programs or make a fair use copy of your legally bought CD for your car.

For instance, I used to buy a lot of music CDs. Now I don't because most of what they turn out is rubbish, and I spend that money on movie DVDs. I used to go to the cinema a lot, but now I don't because I have a nice setup at home and I can buy a DVD for less than it cost for a couple to go to the cinema, and I then have it to watch again whenever I want. In both cases you can guarentee that the industry is counting me not going to the movies or buying CDs as much as meaning that I must be pirating both, completely ignoring that fact that I am simply spending my time and money elsewhere.

Despite making more money than ever, film, music and software industry sponsored associations do lots of handwaving and make up "piracy figures" so that they can get a financial and political advantage. They want locked down everything so that they can begin charging you a rental model for everything you see or do. Want to listen to that CD? $2 per track per listen please. Want to open that Word document? 50c per time. Want to watch that DVD? $4 per viewing. Want to browse the web? .5 c per kilobyte.

And they are not doing this so it will be of benefit to you, they are doing it so it will be of financial benefit to their pockets. I hope they realise that one of the first things that happens when people have all their bills itemised is that people cut down their usage to the bone as they can spot exactly what costs. When the rental model comes in, watch people give up computing as a hobby and go back to real life pursuits.

 

[Arun]

Software is virtual, meaning it can be duplicated infinitely at very little to no cost

That doesn't mean there isn't an initial development cost however, and as you say later in your post...

The only costs are the man hours to develop the software and the packaging and shipping

Which are significant. In the case of MS, their sales are even more significant, but this is NOT THE CASE OF SMALL COMPANIES. Which means that all you're doing this way is killing the innovators, and encouraging the market leaders.
That's very simply because 50% of sales on 1 million is still 500K, but on 10K it's just 5K. And if you need to sell 7.5K copies to break even, then you're fucked.
What's even sadder is that from my experience - but this might of course be wrong, and I do not pretend to have sufficient statistics to back it up - people tend to pirate "small" things more than software from Big Corporations, no matter how much they hate the latter. Perhaps it's because they think it's "more theorically illegal", or, who knows... risky. I can't really justify either arguements myself, but as it is, the way it works is you're basically killing all the small startups.
Perhaps you're right morally here, but the end result is nothing to be proud of. Can you, as an individual, avoid it? No, but that doesn't mean you should go everywhere and tell everyone they're stupid to think it's bad. And I'm just talking of one specific negative consequence of this system - there are plenty of other ones that I won't bother going into here. Are there positive consequences too? Most definitively, but you should stop seeing things only from your point of view, and begin considering problems and solutions from a global standpoint.
And once again, I'm not saying anyone to do or not do something here. I'm just asking them to reconsider being so one-sided in their arguements, because, in the end, it won't get you anywhere.

Uttar

 

[Thowllly]

What's even sadder is that from my experience - but this might of course be wrong, and I do not pretend to have sufficient statistics to back it up - people tend to pirate "small" things more than software from Big Corporations, no matter how much they hate the latter.

My experience is exactly opposite, my friends pirate all the "big" stuff, but actually pay for the "small" stuff.

 

[ANova]

if you have to blame someone, blame the media companies.......not the hardware. I seriously doubt any hardware company enjoys adding something that costs them money - that they then pass on to the consumer - that takes away from the capabilities of their products......

The hardware companies are getting money from the companies that will benefit from this, otherwise they wouldn't even bother. If the governments of the world made it a law then yes they would be forced to add it but at this point that has not happened.

Which are significant. In the case of MS, their sales are even more significant, but this is NOT THE CASE OF SMALL COMPANIES. Which means that all you're doing this way is killing the innovators, and encouraging the market leaders.

My question to you would be, do you really think people would buy everything they are downloading now if the internet were to dissappear tomorrow?

 

[DemoCoder]

plug an HDMI output into a high-def display and without DRM you'll get nothing.

This is not true. At worst, you'll get 480p. It is the outputing device that cares about DRM, not the display device. HDTVs will happily accept any signal, encrypted or not. I have three devices in my house that take HDMI inputs and all of them work fine with non-HDCP compliant devices outputing HDMI. HDCP means that a source device (e.g. DVD player) must authenticate the display device connected to it.

The reality is, until HD-DVD/BluRay arrives, there is no reason for any device on the market to "switch on" HDCP, since it is only relevant for 720p and up. Many devices if they support HDCP at all will simply drop back to 480p if they have to, but many do not.

HTPC's need not support HDMI. HDTV's functioning as monitors will work fine with HDMI inputs from an HTPC and no HDCP. A simple HDMI->DVI dongle will get around those HDTVs that do not.

The reality is, capturing full framed HDMI output is the least likely way people will pirate video from an HTPC playback. The most likely, is cracking the DVD player software, the DVD file encryption itself, or framegrabbing the decoded from from DirectShow or from the GPU.

 

[Dave Baumann]

plug an HDMI output into a high-def display and without DRM you'll get nothing.

This is not true. At worst, you'll get 480p.

So you're saying an HD source will downscale to 480 without DRM?

The reality is, until HD-DVD/BluRay arrives, there is no reason for any device on the market to "switch on" HDCP, since it is only relevant for 720p and up.

Is there anything to suggest it does "switch on" when those sources aren't there?

 

[Smurfie]

The hardware companies are getting money from the companies that will benefit from this, otherwise they wouldn't even bother. If the governments of the world made it a law then yes they would be forced to add it but at this point that has not happened.

This is incorrect. Hardware companies are not getting money from companies wishing to enforce DRM, yet hardware companies have to spend their own money on R&D to include DRM. In fact, hardware companies pay licensing fees to include the DRMs! Reasons are plenty, one of which includes, preparing for the inevitable. The DMCA is already here, we don't need crystal balls telling us what will be next.