ATi is ch**t**g in Filtering

Richthofen said:
ChrisRay said:
Demirug said:
Images with and without R420 "AF-optimization"

Sorry, the text is only in german but pictures should show the differences.

It's amazing how the German/French, Asian sites figure this stuff out before us.

Very Interesting find. Thank you. Reading up :)

well the simple reason for that is that those sites are not in the IHVs pockets. That's why they often have to try hard to get any review samples unlike other big sites who just write down what is trendy and what the majority wants to hear. 1 1/2 years ago and the time before it was praising Nvidia.
The last 1 1/2 year it was all about praising ATI and bashing "evil" Nvidia.
I trust them as much as i would trust PR or marketing departments.

Of Course I have considered that, But implying that here would definately call into the credibility of most major sites around here. Including Beyond3d. I dont make waves.

Chris
 
I don't think it has anything to do with sites being in companies' pockets. There just aren't that many technically-inclined sites out there. Beyond3D is perhaps the most technically-inclined English-speaking site out there, and there has been a decent amount of information that has been gleaned from this site.

Edit: I think another reason is that it appears that the webmasters of a couple of those websites are actually programmers. That's not typically the case here.
 
Chalnoth said:
I don't think it has anything to do with sites being in companies' pockets. There just aren't that many technically-inclined sites out there. Beyond3D is perhaps the most technically-inclined English-speaking site out there, and there has been a decent amount of information that has been gleaned from this site.

Edit: I think another reason is that it appears that the webmasters of a couple of those websites are actually programmers. That's not typically the case here.

Dont mis interpret me. I am not coming the conclusion anyone is under anybodies pockets, There may be a certain level of Bias, But not the kind that results in a pay check.

It is a possibility that I "considered". Bringing up such a possibility, However brings certain sites in question. Which questions credibility, Opening up a whole can of worms. Something I would never want to do.

Chris
 
Richthofen said:
ChrisRay said:
Demirug said:
Images with and without R420 "AF-optimization"

Sorry, the text is only in german but pictures should show the differences.

It's amazing how the German/French, Asian sites figure this stuff out before us.

Very Interesting find. Thank you. Reading up :)

well the simple reason for that is that those sites are not in the IHVs pockets. That's why they often have to try hard to get any review samples unlike other big sites who just write down what is trendy and what the majority wants to hear. 1 1/2 years ago and the time before it was praising Nvidia.
The last 1 1/2 year it was all about praising ATI and bashing "evil" Nvidia.
I trust them as much as i would trust PR or marketing departments.


That's a total BS at least for french websites.
First they are not really independants as most of them are linked to big online vendors. And not only thru advertising.
Secondly besides Hardware.fr, all others have the technical knowledge of a basic fanboy with absolutely no ethics.
 
PatrickL said:
That's a total BS at least for french websites.
First they are not really independants as most of them are linked to big online vendors. And not only thru advertising.
Secondly besides Hardware.fr, all others have the technical knowledge of a basic <bleep> with absolutely no ethics.

I don't think they were talking about all german/french, and i guess we really should add russian sites also.
 
Chalnoth said:
I don't think it has anything to do with sites being in companies' pockets. There just aren't that many technically-inclined sites out there. Beyond3D is perhaps the most technically-inclined English-speaking site out there, and there has been a decent amount of information that has been gleaned from this site.

Edit: I think another reason is that it appears that the webmasters of a couple of those websites are actually programmers. That's not typically the case here.

well..

"the most technically-inclined English-speaking site out there" spent 2003 pointing the wrong direction:)

I lost my faith on Bd3 after the "beta article" about Traod/dx9 ps2.
(does that qualify as " decent amount of information" ?)


The funny thing is:

2003:
Ati = Fulldx9/ps2.0/Hl2 = great

Nv = Bad feature support = BAD

2004:
Ati= Very BAD feature suport/ Hl2 LIE = Great performer in useless and non existent ps2.0 standard.

Nv= Fulldx9/.ps3.0/Doom3/Stalker/Farcy = Not sure if it will be usefull in the next 10 years..

I don't care how "technical" a site is, not being biased is all it takes to win my confidence.

Ati has left you guys in the rain bigtime. Dx9, Shader models, Optmizations, higher clocks, marketing "platinum desperation" (good on ya Macci),..the whole works..you name it... I wonder why with so many talented people arround here and NOT ONE SINGLE decent game was made using Ati hardware with Ati's great shader model 2.0 "solution". And they where all pointing the wrong direction :)

How about a "beta article" on Farcry Ps3.0 performance? Maybe ultrashadow? Or an "obscure-title-stuffed-with-loops-and-geometry instancing-and-displacement-mapping" full of bugs, made in a hurry unplayable but with the latest technology avaiable in Ps3.0 and coincidentally bundled??

Didn't think so..

[]'s
 
I lost my faith on Bd3 after the "beta article" about Traod/dx9 ps2.
(does that qualify as " decent amount of information" ?)

While I can understand GeForce FX owners being annoyed at that article, their vitriol should not be vented at us.

Does it contain valuable information? Good lord, yes. Was it a surprise? Hell yeah – running the numbers on the Radeons and then the FX’s after I wondered whether I should even publish it. However, the truth of the matter is that this was the truth and it highlighted the issues that were we already aware of from other, synthetic, benchmarks. I strongly believe that articles like this, and ones from other sites is part of the reason why GeForce 6800 is here in the configuration it is – NVIDIA have currently halted all new reviews on 6800 because “they are sick of people moaning about the drivers so we’re holding back and getting everything perfect in the next set†– Bravo! Lets hope they do. But clearly, if it wasn’t for reviewers highlighting issues then this may not ever have happened.

Ati has left you guys in the rain bigtime. Dx9, Shader models, Optmizations, higher clocks, marketing "platinum desperation" (good on ya Macci),..the whole works..you name it... I wonder why with so many talented people arround here and NOT ONE SINGLE decent game was made using Ati hardware with Ati's great shader model 2.0 "solution". And they where all pointing the wrong direction

Wrong.

What do you think Far Cry and Halo were all about. “But, hang on, the performance of those aren’t anything like Tomb Raider†I hear you say. Want to know why? Because they use different paths with different shaders depending one whether you’re running a Radeon or an FX – you run Far Cry on a Radeon and you get a greater range of PS2.0 shaders, including much better looking water.

How about a "beta article" on Farcry Ps3.0 performance? Maybe ultrashadow? Or an "obscure-title-stuffed-with-loops-and-geometry instancing-and-displacement-mapping" full of bugs, made in a hurry unplayable but with the latest technology avaiable in Ps3.0 and coincidentally bundled??

How about an official DX9.0c that I can run Shader 3.0 games, how about Shader 3.0 patches, how about Ultrashadow used in games, how about applications / test with Sahder 3.0 in. Can’t do these things if I don’t have the tools (and I certainly can’t do them if I don’t have the boards).

(You’ll also note that Far Cry is not one of our benchmarking titles – which given the relative performances is clearly not congruent with your thoughts on the site.)

As for all this filtering stuff as Chalnoth points out, Computer Base appears to be working with 3Dcenter to code applications, which is all well and good. However, we aren’t coders and I can talk about what I can see – you’ll note that they are talking about things from a very theoretical level, as yet they are not basing it on what can actually be seen.
 
Deco-Rj said:
well..

"the most technically-inclined English-speaking site out there" spent 2003 pointing the wrong direction:)

I lost my faith on Bd3 after the "beta article" about Traod/dx9 ps2.
(does that qualify as " decent amount of information" ?)
Wtf was wrong with the beta article I thought it was rather good.

The funny thing is:

2003:
Ati = Fulldx9/ps2.0/Hl2 = great

Nv = Bad feature support = BAD

2004:
Ati= Very BAD feature suport/ Hl2 LIE = Great performer in useless and non existent ps2.0 standard.

Nv= Fulldx9/.ps3.0/Doom3/Stalker/Farcy = Not sure if it will be usefull in the next 10 years..
If anything I'd say farcry runs better on ATI then nvidia but I think PS2.0a would be usable now ( PS3.0 is a super set of it ). Of course only NV and 3dlabs and powervr support it.
Ati has left you guys in the rain bigtime. Dx9, Shader models, Optmizations, higher clocks, marketing "platinum desperation" (good on ya Macci),..the whole works..you name it... I wonder why with so many talented people arround here and NOT ONE SINGLE decent game was made using Ati hardware with Ati's great shader model 2.0 "solution". And they where all pointing the wrong direction :)
Same thing goes for nvidia name one game that supports PS 2.0a ? they have lied ot reviewers in the same way.

Now I'm prolly gonna get flamed for being an ATI fanboi like I have been for being a NV fanboi. Bah humbug.
 
Deco-Rj said:
How about a "beta article" on Farcry Ps3.0 performance? Maybe ultrashadow? Or an "obscure-title-stuffed-with-loops-and-geometry instancing-and-displacement-mapping" full of bugs, made in a hurry unplayable but with the latest technology avaiable in Ps3.0 and coincidentally bundled??

Didn't think so..

[]'s

As Dave said, there are no beta Sm3.0 Far Cry and MS DX9.0c isn't even available yet, other then a beta and Nvidias drivers doesn't seem to have great support yet. So i don't see what a article about that would lead to.

But i do agree that a lot of sites have downplayed Nvidias features a bit to much. But it's not easy to praise f.e the video processor if the current drivers don't support them. And it's difficult to test stuff like the Ultra Shadow technology when there's no games/benchmarks to test on.

But the "war" has just started. Most "reviews" that we have seen are really just previews imo. Let's wait until the Far Cry patch, Doom3 and Half Life 2, DX 9 c, arrives. And some non beta drivers that support all features and then make a judgement.
 
Bjorn said:
And it's difficult to test stuff like the Ultra Shadow technology when there's no games/benchmarks to test on.

most of the Ultra Shadow is nothing that needs a special codepath. just take any game with stencil shadows and compare speed drop when enabling it on a gf, and on a radeon.

the only thing that ultrashadow provides on developerside, is the depth-clamping. while it does give additional performance, it really is just one bit of the whole ultrashadow term.. you can measure the rest.
 
can anyone post some screen shot of ati's tri optimization on and off for the x800, im not talking about the tri/color/af test, but a real screenshot in a game, wondering if theirs a difference in iq.

if its already been done, a link would be nice.
 
ChrisRay said:
It's amazing how the German/French, Asian sites figure this stuff out before us.

Very Interesting find. Thank you. Reading up :)
Well, i'm pretty sure that ixbt.com isn't German/French and definately not asian either 8)
 
CyanBlues said:
can anyone post some screen shot of ati's tri optimization on and off for the x800, im not talking about the tri/color/af test, but a real screenshot in a game, wondering if theirs a difference in iq.

if its already been done, a link would be nice.
There is no way of turning these optimizations off currently. That's one of the main points of all this talk about ATI's trilinear optimizations.
 
One would imagine a screenshot from a R3x0 or RV3x0 would be an acceptable substitute for a "legacy" trilinear R420 shot, though I haven't been able to spot differences b/w a 9800XT and X800P/XT in any review I've read (namely, all of them). Of course,

1) I haven't exactly been poring over the screenshots
2) screenshots aren't great at exposing the MIPmap filtering differences in question
3) Computerbase.de and 3DC.de ppl have said they can spot the differences in motion, though most sites that performed detailed analysis (of R420 or RV3x0) didn't seem to notice trylinear.

Anyway, the IQ reviews should be up soon (few weeks at most, I'd think), depending on whether they still have review samples (or have bought retail cards). If reviewers decide to include NV40's brilinear in the comparison, we may end up waiting longer, as I believe Dave said nV is witholding 6800 samples until they can release newer drivers. (This would appear at odds with 6800s being available at retail now or very soon, though.)
 
You ain't gonna be playin' no games with no psychadelic textures. The easiest way to turn "try" off in current drivers is to use jarringly different textures, which would rule out a comparison of in-game screenshots.

Alternatively, I suppose we could submit pre-generated MIP-maps, but reviewers don't have the time or expertise to do that ATM.

Actually, isn't "try" off in OGL games, or am I misremembering?
 
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