ATI and App Specific Optimisations

Discussion in 'Graphics and Semiconductor Industry' started by Dave Baumann, Aug 30, 2004.

  1. trinibwoy

    trinibwoy Meh
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    I understand your point but the 'damage' done to each individual is not dependent on how many others got shafted. Each person only cares about his own problems not how many others have the same problem. Hence the capital loss issue is several magnitudes more serious than a $400 video card purchase. :wink:
     
  2. cloudscapes

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    Hmmm.. you do have a point. It's true throwing $400 out the window won't force your to mortgage all yoru belongings and file for bankruptcy, or whatever investors have to do. I see your point.

    I guess I just look at the big picture, and not individual's problems. And I've never cared much about shares and stock. Guess that makes me somewhat selfish though.
     
  3. trinibwoy

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    Heh
     
  4. WaltC

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    Yea, I mean, just because an IHV publicly demonstrates an obsession with misleading its customers by way of PR propaganda designed to snow and con people--that's no reason for anyone to get involved, right? We should all just cheerfully bend over for the soap, right?...;) Who *cares* if a product does what the manufacturer claims, right?

    Excuse me, but what in your posts here is other than your personal opinion? Are you speaking of being annoyed with yourself? (If so, then I'd agree with you as to it being annoying...;)) If not, then please don't overlook your own excesses in the interests of persecuting other people for what you see as theirs.

    The question I'd have for you is just what is "praiseworthy" about an IHV manufacturing the kind of product it must make in order to remain competitive? Should nVidia get a Merit Badge for doing what it's supposed to do--for making a 3d card that--gasp--actually *does* most of what nVidia says it does?...;) IHVs are *supposed* to describe the products they sell truthfully--there's nothing to praise about it. If they don't, they won't make it for very long. nVidia's at least partially cleaning up its act because it has to--its potential customers have made it loud and clear they aren't interested in anything else. I guess you don't see that it was all of the righteously earned guff nVidia took over nV3x contrasted with R3x0, and its impact on nVidia's sales and earnings, that *resulted* in nVidia producing an nV40-class product, do you?

    As to your other remarks--it depends on what sort of "praise" you might decide to spew as to how it will be responded to, doesn't it? But generally I find your entire premise flawed as I see nothing praiseworthy about any IHV making competitive products--they have no choice if they wish to remain a major player in the business, do they? I expect IHVs to make such products.

    What I don't expect is an IHV to make a grossly undercompetitive product and advertise it falsely simply for the sake of misleading customers (Ex: the false 8-pixel-pipe claim nVidia made for nV30/5/8 was the first and only time I've ever seen an IHV deliberately and wilfully misrepresent such a basic specification--3dfx never did it, ATi never did it--don't know of any other IHV who ever did do it--aside from nVidia with nV3x. The kicker is that apart from nV3x even nVidia has never done that before. I'm certainly not going to "praise" nVidia for telling the truth about the number of pixel pipes in nV4x, since that's expected of them anyway.)

    Lots of people care as to whether manufacturers truthfully and accurately represent the products they sell, and the success of subscription-based magazines like Consumer Reports proves it. Look at all of the trade magazines revolving around the differences between automobiles, stereos, cameras, ad infintum. The suggestion that this isn't important for 3d cards is, of course, absurd. IMO, it's only "loooosers" who spin the yarn that "one 3d-card is just like another" and that "one IHV is just like another." That's no more true for 3d cards than it is for any other product class you might name.

    About what? Heh...;)

    Oh, you must mean back when Pabst restricted himself to motherboards, core-logic chipsets, and cpus--which he did for years before dipping his big toe into 3d (and getting it amputated in the process)...;) Yes, I liked the site a lot more then, too.


    What an absurd statement. I guess it never occurred to you at the time that people who had been using 3dfx products for years saw it all as an ignorant conspiracy driven primarily by paid nVidia zealots and shills (who hadn't a clue but were dangerous because they thought otherwise...;)) The issue was never "3dfx vs. nVidia," anyway--it was GLIDE versus NO-GLIDE, is what it was. D3d well and truly sucked originally, nVidia's first decent OpenGL driver was years away, and almost every 3d game shipping at the time was GLIDE only--all of which amounted to anyone recommending a non-GLIDE 3d card at the time being an utter ignoramus...;) So, it depends on which side of the coin you were as to who was the "zealot" and who wasn't...:D

    Back then in that climate I remember very few "good, logical discussions"--at least the ones telling me to dump my V2 for a TNT (I actually used both for awhile), or my V3 (which adequately replaced my TNT/V2 in every capacity) for a TNT2, so that I'd have to dump my considerable library of GLIDE 3d games that I owned at the time.

    There was never anything logical about that suggestion (and no, "GL Quake" was truly not enough)...;) Back then, the largest fantasy THG peddled as its party line was that "GLIDE games don't count" which they somehow thought was a relevant, rational position for people like me who owned a couple of dozen or more GLIDE games at the time (games which I considered to be worth a lot more than a TNT2, btw.) But at THG during the period GLIDE was not only an irrelevant word, it was also an ugly one. I *stopped* reading THG regularly in those days because of that kind of incredibly irrational propaganda camouflaged as "information."

    I disagree. What's "impossible" is to listen to someone state that all 3d cards are the same, the drivers are the same, and the IHVs who make and promote them are the same. They aren't, and proof of that is abundant. As long as there is competition there will be competitive differences to consider. It seems to me that's what 3d forums like this one are all about.

    Uh, stating opinions isn't "forcing" anything on anybody. People are different, 3d cards are different, IHVs are different, and opinions about all of them are therefore different. Obviously, that's why what seems rational to you may not seem rational to me, etc. (So stop trying to force your own opinions of "rationality" on other people...;))

    Welcome to the club...;) It's odd that you might think that you alone are the only rational reader of B3d forum threads, though...;)

    Snide insults directed at Dave and the B3d staff (who do more to promote objective information about *3d* than any other site on the 'net, imo) will get you half a cup of cold black coffee from an all-night diner, I suppose. But nothing else.

    As to "all this ATI vs Nvidia stuff," as you put it, it's called "competition" and I'd suggest you accept it as a reality for your own peace of mind, if nothing else. The products are different, the drivers are different, the companies are different, and it's investigating the differences among them that interests most B3d readers. If you prefer the fantasy that there are no differences then I think you might be much happier going back to THG where such yarns pacify such people as need to believe them...:D But if you are prepared to accept the reality that there are indeed differences among products and the companies which manufacture them, and you find yourself interested in such differences, then stick around, by all means, as you'll learn a lot without a doubt.
     
  5. ondaedg

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    Well Walt, I would love to respond to that but damn, that is a long list of typing. I do want to clear up that I never made an insult at Dave or Beyond3d. I was being dead serious when I said that if it makes his revenue better then continue on with the wars! I am going to assume you misunderstood a bit of humor rather than the alternative which is to try to alienate me as some kind of misbehaved poster.

    As for the Glide issue you brought up, the industry got kickstarted by 3dfx and others wanted to jump in. As a consumer, you shouldn't even have nary a thing to bitch about. A proprietary API would have kept Nvidia AND ATI producing 39.00 cards. What we got as an end result at that time was several companies with good performing videocards as opengl and Direct3d became more adopted and Glide got put by the wayside. S3, Matrox, Nvidia, and ATI were all producing good cards. Choice is good and Glide made us choose one card and that was 3dfx. I don't know about you, but I as a consumer like choice.

    And speaking about choice, I am all for consumer awareness as much as anyone on these boards. I know that Nvidia cheated in 3dMark, but that is not going to prevent me from also looking at ATI objectively. I think the 3dMark fiasco put so many people into the ATI camps in these forums, that ATI can do no wrong or when ATI does do something wrong, as long as it "wasn't as bad as what NVidia did" that they are still free from scrutiny.

    To me this is wrong and many on this forum are setting double standards by which they judge. I will say this once again and I stand by what I say, Nvidia and ATI have both been "unscrupulous" and they should be judged by the merits of their products rather than by the views of others on this board. There are too many here who want to jump in every thread and turn it into a pissing fight against Nvidia rather than discuss the positive qualities of the videocard.

    PS: don't write so much. Hard to read so much when you have ADD like myself :lol:
     
  6. ondaedg

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    "As to "all this ATI vs Nvidia stuff," as you put it, it's called "competition" and I'd suggest you accept it as a reality for your own peace of mind, if nothing else. The products are different, the drivers are different, the companies are different, and it's investigating the differences among them that interests most B3d readers. If you prefer the fantasy that there are no differences then I think you might be much happier going back to THG where such yarns pacify such people as need to believe them... But if you are prepared to accept the reality that there are indeed differences among products and the companies which manufacture them, and you find yourself interested in such differences, then stick around, by all means, as you'll learn a lot without a doubt."

    Now that I have a little bit more time, I can address your final paragraph like how it should be addressed. You make me sound like such a newb. Who in the world stated that these companies are so alike? I never said that. Nor do I expect it. I work in the world of software development. Personally, I don't think there could possibly be any software company like the one I work for. I expect the same to be for any tech company.

    And why take a shot at THG forums? Their forums may not be as in depth as this one, but that is no reason to act like such an elitist. This is exactly what I am talking about. Act humble, spread your knowledge and maybe these forums will be worth lurking in rather than sifting through the hours of garbage posts with the same old crap.
     
  7. Unknown Soldier

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    Actually the 3DMark fiasco just went to show us that Nvidia did indeed create such a crap card(NV30/3X). It couldn't keep up with ATI's card so they(Nvidia) decided to diss Futuremark. Double standards indeed.

    Nvidia and ATI were judged on it's merits. Nvidia lost.

    Nvidia has regained some after producing the NV40 though .. but should I forgive Nvidia. My answer is still no.

    US
     
  8. WaltC

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    I wasn't alienating you as "misbehaved" but as misinformed...;) I'm glad that you cleared it up that your insults weren't meant to be insulting, though.

    We all like choice, obviously, and GLIDE and 3dfx have gone by the wayside, and GLIDE is no longer a choice for consumers. Still doesn't in any way alter the fact that in 1998-99, when people were ignorantly targeting GLIDE as some sort of enemy of 3d gaming, that 3dfx GLIDE cards were far more useful for 3d gaming than anything else. Supporting consumer choice through the dissemination of non-factual, slanted propaganda is not noble or laudible, then or now. I said it back in '98-99 many, many times--that if someone professed to be a "serious" 3d gamer and he didn't own a GLIDE card at that time he was just kidding himself and didn't know of what he spoke. I've seen nothing in succeeding years to make me think I was mistaken at the time in that judgement. It's one thing to advocate choice--it's quite another to dishonestly target an existing product with negative propaganda just to promote an inferior competitor product. I saw a lot of that back then and I doubt I'll ever really forget it.

    The point is that when crticizing nVidia it isn't necessary at all to criticize ATi at the same time, nor is it pertinent or relative to do so--as when criticizing ATi it isn't necessary or relevant to mention nVidia at the same time. It's like when [H] decided that "quack" was the "same thing" as nVidia's attempt to undercut and ruin 3dMark. No one was served in the slightest by such talk as all it was intended to do was to move the focus off of nVidia at a time when the 3dMark fiasco was a current event and "quack" was so far in the past nobody remebered it. Indeed, when [H] first did the "quack" publicity [H] never brought prior nVidia cheating into it at the time--which was entirely proper. Obviously, then, to do that with nVidia's 3dMark behavior was to demonstrate a double standard and an obvious attempt to obscure nVidia's trespasses at ATi's expense. This, even though there wasn't a single, solitary thing about "quack" and "nVidiaMark" that were at all even remotely similar.

    IE, talking about ATi's sins doesn't whitewash nVidia's sins, or vice versa. So if you want to talk about one or the other--that's fine--but talking about them both at the same time, as if they were the same thing, is completely dishonest, imo, and serves no one's interests.

    OK, I'll try, but no promises...;)
     
  9. WaltC

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    Then you can appreciate why the sentiment "they all cheat" is utterly worthless in terms of anyone's edification, right?...;) It's a statement that literally means nothing to me except: "Cheating is OK since they all do it." To me, it's not, and that sentiment is no more meaningful than telling me that it's "OK" if someone hacks into my work systems and steals credit card numbers and places false charges on them simply because it "happens a lot"...;) No, I'm in favor of talking about dishonesty by way of specific examples relative to specific parties, and in no other fashion. Anything less is a con, imo.

    I brought THG into my comments only because you did, and I assume when you say "these forums" you are still talking about THG? As I said, I quit reading THG years ago for reasons I specified in an earlier post. I couldn't tell you whether THG is still "hours of garbage posts with the same old crap," but I will suggest that if that's what you think I'd certainly quit reading THG...;)
     
  10. ondaedg

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    I haven't been to THG in years. I am just saying that you don't have to make them sound so......simple. Either way, take it easy on my attention issues. 8)
     
  11. Himself

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    I think ATI is just giving their retail customers what they want, whether they have a clue what that is coming from serving oem customers so much is something else. They are slowly adapting though..

    If I were a game developer I'd be kinda annoyed if I had bug reports coming in because the ground was dug out from beneath them from the last drivers they tested and the next with hacks to change what they request from the drivers.

    As an end user, if it works, great, if it causes me headaches, not so great. As for arsing with benchmarks, well, don't respect that, and it means I have to do more work to figure out what card can do what, so that's annoying.

    I bought a few nvidia cards in the past, based on benchmark performance, games didn't meet my expectations, image quality was crap, drivers or the games were really buggy, and the fans ignored all the flaws and put up with it all, saying how great they were.. went to Matrox after that, same thing, just more snobby fans, now with ATI, some superfans, but not as many total zombies, so that's good.. :twisted:
     
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