ATI and App Specific Optimisations

[Tweaker]

Another thing is genaral optimization, which can ALL games benefit from, but still there should by way how turn it off.

Completely absurd. If the optimization is general, adding code to turn it off will probably slow everything down. For example, do users need a way to disable shader compilers/optimizers (I am talking about real optimizers, not shader replacement)? No
-FUDie

Are you kidding me,right? Of course I have thought optimization like ATIs brylinear.

 

[FUDie]

Another thing is genaral optimization, which can ALL games benefit from, but still there should by way how turn it off.

Completely absurd. If the optimization is general, adding code to turn it off will probably slow everything down. For example, do users need a way to disable shader compilers/optimizers (I am talking about real optimizers, not shader replacement)? No

Are you kidding me,right? Of course I have thought optimization like ATIs brylinear.

I don't consider that an general optimization as it affects image quality.

-FUDie

 

[dan2097]

I don't consider that an general optimization as it affects image quality.

-FUDie

Examples?

real world examples where the image quality is degraded rather than changed that is

 

[FUDie]

I don't consider that an general optimization as it affects image quality.

Examples?

real world examples where the image quality is degraded rather than changed that is

Isn't the fact that ATI, for example, uses texture analysis to determine when to enable the trilinear stuff proof enough that it's not a general optimization?

-FUDie

 

[hovz]

the only real issue here as it relates to benchmarks is : why is nvidias brilinear compared to atis trylinear when its doing much less filtering?

all of you who say nvidia is doing more filtering with the opt off, the difference between atis try and nvidias tri is much smaller than the difference between atis try and nvidias bri. i still havent seen 1 example of atis try lowering iq. but ive seen nvidias do so.

 

[ondaedg]

"What mistake has ATI made? Aren't they profitable? Aren't they growing revenues every quarter? Application specific optimizations don't have to be cheats.

-FUDie"

This is awesome. To all other ATI lovers, one of your people has proclaimed that application specific optimizations don't have to be cheats! So early on in this thread, those that were claiming Nvidia was cheating in Doom3 with NV30 and "possibly" NV40 by using alternative paths for Doom3, it is not a cheat! This stuff gets better all the time. I can hear JVD now: "Nvidia made ATI do it!" Lol. I am having a ball with this stuff. Ok, let's sum up:

Nvidia:
1. Nvidia is evil.
2. Nvidia "may" be doing app specific optimizations (how evil!) but we have no proof
3. Nvidia cheated in 3dMark!
4. Nvidia gives the end user the option to use brilinear filtering! (They are evil!)
5. Nvidia may be doing shader replacements that I can't notice but makes the game faster (how evil!) and no, we have no proof of this either..
6. Once again, Nvidia is evil?

ATI:
1. Nvidia is evil!
2. ATI "may be doing app specific optimization (this is good!) but we have no proof
3. Nvidia cheated in 3dMark!
4. ATI uses a brilinear filtering without the option to turn it off unlike Nvidia therefore, Nvidia is evil!
5. ATI may be doing shader replacements that I can't notice but makes the game faster (good work ATI!) and no, we have no proof of this either..
6. ATI's execs are being investigated for insider trading so....Nvidia is an immoral company!
7. ATI is being sued by its stockholders for unethical accounting practices and inaccurate financial reports (As long as it doesn't hurt us PC enthusiasts!)
8. ATI has been reducing filtering quality to enhance performance since the r200 era. (Nvidia is evil!)
9. Therefore, Nvidia is evil?

This is what you are up against. Objective thinking means jack-sh!t here. Nor does impartial thinking. Throw away logic even. All these guys do is live on these boards to throw sticks and stones like five year olds at an IHV of all things! As unproductive as it may be to have the same old ATI lovers come in here and find a million ways to justify the behavior of their beloved company when it mirrors or even exceeds that of the evil Nvidia, I find it entertaining to say the least. Even made me come out of the shadows and stop being a lurker. Guys like that JVD guy make me actually bookmark a page just to see what else he can cry about when it comes to Nvidia. And yes, I will go home and play some Warcraft3 on my Softmodded 9500 and enjoy it.

Buh Bye

 

[Tweaker]

Another thing is genaral optimization, which can ALL games benefit from, but still there should by way how turn it off.

Completely absurd. If the optimization is general, adding code to turn it off will probably slow everything down. For example, do users need a way to disable shader compilers/optimizers (I am talking about real optimizers, not shader replacement)? No

Are you kidding me,right? Of course I have thought optimization like ATIs brylinear.

I don't consider that an general optimization as it affects image quality.

-FUDie

optimization like ATIs brylinear.

Ok, maybe it was not good example. Lets say just general optimization.

 

[Ostsol]

I don't consider that an general optimization as it affects image quality.

Examples?

real world examples where the image quality is degraded rather than changed that is

Isn't the fact that ATI, for example, uses texture analysis to determine when to enable the trilinear stuff proof enough that it's not a general optimization?

-FUDie

Are you trying to change the definition of "generic optimization"? Previously, a "generic optimization" was one that was applied to any relevant application -- and not just specific ones.

ATI's texture filtering optimization is applied to any application that uses textures. It isn't applied to all textures, but all textures that use mip-mapping are analyzed. Does this not make it generic? Actually, is it not better that filtering on all textures isn't reduced?

 

[hovz]

5. Nvidia may be doing shader replacements that I can't notice but makes the game faster (how evil!) and no, we have no proof of this either..

the same could be said about atis filtering optimizations

 

[dan2097]

What Ostel said, if it didnt analyse textures we know it couldnt be a genuine optimizations as Nvidia has already shown us that a straight brilinear implementation will in some cases cause image degradation.

A bit off topic, or maybe not, ATI really really really needs to add an equivalent of Nvidias af optimization toggle in their new control panel its pathetic that you still cant without fiddling around get anything but bilinear on the higher texture stages when using control panel af.

Now Nvidia have added such an option theres no reason why ATI cant, they can even keep them on by default if they want.

 

[FUDie]

I don't consider that an general optimization as it affects image quality.

Examples?

real world examples where the image quality is degraded rather than changed that is

Isn't the fact that ATI, for example, uses texture analysis to determine when to enable the trilinear stuff proof enough that it's not a general optimization?

Are you trying to change the definition of "generic optimization"? Previously, a "generic optimization" was one that was applied to any relevant application -- and not just specific ones.

ATI's texture filtering optimization is applied to any application that uses textures. It isn't applied to all textures, but all textures that use mip-mapping are analyzed. Does this not make it generic? Actually, is it not better that filtering on all textures isn't reduced?

It may not be app specific, but it's certainly not generic. Someone changes the textures and the performance changes... How can that be generic? Nothing else has changed: Pixel shader, vertex shader, etc. are all the same. It may be an "automatic" optimization, but it's certainly not generic! In any event, image quality is affected: Bit compares have shown this. ATI has done a good job of making sure this doesn't harm the end-users' experience, but that still doesn't make it generic in my mind.

-FUDie

 

[Ostsol]

It may not be app specific, but it's certainly not generic. Someone changes the textures and the performance changes... How can that be generic? Nothing else has changed: Pixel shader, vertex shader, etc. are all the same. It may be an "automatic" optimization, but it's certainly not generic! In any event, image quality is affected: Bit compares have shown this. ATI has done a good job of making sure this doesn't harm the end-users' experience, but that still doesn't make it generic in my mind.

-FUDie

So an optimization can only be generic if it has absolutely no effect on image quality? That's not just "generic" -- that's "ideal"! Even without being so ideal, an optimization can certainly be generic.

In any case, performance changes through texture changes the new textures don't have the a similar degree of difference (or similarity) between mip-map levels.

 

[Khedlar]

I think I'll jump on the band wagon and also say I don't care who does what as long as it runs and looks good. I don't play benchmarks.

Here is what I would like to see in every review:

1. A bench that is un-optimized and follows an agreed upon standard in developing the code. This gives me a feel of which card may be more capable.

2. Many real time games, not benches, say at least 10. Some popular, some not. I only care about FPS at what res and the reviews impression on the looks of the game. I don't need a frame by frame analysis because I don't play a game frame by frame. Tell me if it looks good or bad.

3. I don't want a side by side caparision. I'm more than capable of putting all the information together myself. Review each card on its own merit.

I will always put more weight on the card that will play the games I want to play better not some mystical bench that I don't play. But I still need that bench to make an informed choice. I also need it so I can improve on what I have.

In the end if I can't see it at game speed they can do want they want. I want the highest FPS at the highest res. while maintaining good look and feel.

 

[ondaedg]

5. Nvidia may be doing shader replacements that I can't notice but makes the game faster (how evil!) and no, we have no proof of this either..

the same could be said about atis filtering optimizations

I thought I did say that in the "ATI" section of my post.
Either way, that is my point. All these "ATI can do no evil" and "Nvidia is evil" posters need to see that both of these companies really are not any different when it comes to business practices. And also that they are really annoying.

 

[Proforma]

Re: ATI and why they are now being run by monkeys.

Must you turn everything ATI vs Nvidia?

All I want is a checkbox that allows us to disable ATI's optimizations. It's a checkbox, not an outright removal of that feature. Give us that option and stop all the shithauling being made.

and all i want is a check box to disable nvidia's optimizations . It's a checkbox , not an outright removal of that "feature".

Give us that option. God only knows how long they have been doing it .

How to watch a company that drove themselves into the ground and then take your company and do the same thing. ATI is run by a bunch of moronic monkeys. They watch Nvidia do it in the past with the NV30 so guess what, lets be a stupid as they are and do the same friggin thing.

"Moronic monkeys"? Maybe you should take a look in the mirror. Tell us, what multibillion dollar company do you run that makes you such an authority?

The idea is to learn and better yourself, not make the same mistakes as your competition. Anyone in Canada need some business sense?

What mistake has ATI made? Aren't they profitable? Aren't they growing revenues every quarter? Application specific optimizations don't have to be cheats.

-FUDie

FUD, your biggest problem is making lots of excuses for ATI. If I wanted excuses I would be writing in to GWB.

Quit making excuses and just face reality.

 

[FUDie]

Re: ATI and why they are now being run by monkeys.

Must you turn everything ATI vs Nvidia?

All I want is a checkbox that allows us to disable ATI's optimizations. It's a checkbox, not an outright removal of that feature. Give us that option and stop all the shithauling being made.

and all i want is a check box to disable nvidia's optimizations . It's a checkbox , not an outright removal of that "feature".

Give us that option. God only knows how long they have been doing it .

How to watch a company that drove themselves into the ground and then take your company and do the same thing. ATI is run by a bunch of moronic monkeys. They watch Nvidia do it in the past with the NV30 so guess what, lets be a stupid as they are and do the same friggin thing.

"Moronic monkeys"? Maybe you should take a look in the mirror. Tell us, what multibillion dollar company do you run that makes you such an authority?

The idea is to learn and better yourself, not make the same mistakes as your competition. Anyone in Canada need some business sense?

What mistake has ATI made? Aren't they profitable? Aren't they growing revenues every quarter? Application specific optimizations don't have to be cheats.

FUD, your biggest problem is making lots of excuses for ATI. If I wanted excuses I would be writing in to GWB.

Thanks for not answering a single question. Why bother quoting everything if you're not going to respond? Do you deny that ATI is making more money than they have in years? Do you deny that ATI has many design wins for PCI-Express? These are signs of a successful company as they are selling their products! Seems to me that you are jealous or something.

Quit making excuses and just face reality.

The reality is that you don't have a clue.

-FUDie

 

[Tweaker]

Another thing is genaral optimization, which can ALL games benefit from, but still there should by way how turn it off.

Completely absurd. If the optimization is general, adding code to turn it off will probably slow everything down. For example, do users need a way to disable shader compilers/optimizers (I am talking about real optimizers, not shader replacement)? No

Are you kidding me,right? Of course I have thought optimization like ATIs brylinear.

I don't consider that an general optimization as it affects image quality.

-FUDie

Btw,is texture compression OK in term of IQ degradation? Just want to know your opinion.Please,no flame

 

[FUDie]

Another thing is genaral optimization, which can ALL games benefit from, but still there should by way how turn it off.

Completely absurd. If the optimization is general, adding code to turn it off will probably slow everything down. For example, do users need a way to disable shader compilers/optimizers (I am talking about real optimizers, not shader replacement)? No

Are you kidding me,right? Of course I have thought optimization like ATIs brylinear.

I don't consider that an general optimization as it affects image quality.

Btw,is texture compression OK in term of IQ degradation? Just want to know your opinion.Please,no flame

When done or requested by the app, sure.

-FUDie

 

[ondaedg]

"Thanks for not answering a single question. Why bother quoting everything if you're not going to respond? Do you deny that ATI is making more money than they have in years? Do you deny that ATI has many design wins for PCI-Express? These are signs of a successful company as they are selling their products! Seems to me that you are jealous or something.
Quote:
Quit making excuses and just face reality.

The reality is that you don't have a clue.

-FUDie"

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrreatttttttt post FUD guy! Lol! So what you are saying is that ATI has many many many design wins and they are a successful company. Uhm, ooook. Where is the relevance in that? WTF does that mean?

Another thing I have noticed in these forums is that ATI luvers have decided to be the authors of "how to define cheats/optimizations" and that they have also reserved the right to change those definitions based on the current status of ATI hardware/drivers. Rofl! What may have been a cheat last hardware generation is now an optimization this generation since ATI is doing it. This stuff is great. Keep it coming. Makes you want to leave the world of IT and become a psychologist just to study why some peeps will sit in front of a computer for hours a day attacking other people and defending a vendor just because he has adopted some strange fascination with that particular IHV. What is even more amazing is the irrational things they will say just to defend the honor of their "favorite ihv".

To the death for my IHV!

 

[Proforma]

Fudie should really take note, of course pride won't allow

"Thanks for not answering a single question. Why bother quoting everything if you're not going to respond? Do you deny that ATI is making more money than they have in years? Do you deny that ATI has many design wins for PCI-Express? These are signs of a successful company as they are selling their products! Seems to me that you are jealous or something.
Quote:
Quit making excuses and just face reality.

The reality is that you don't have a clue.

-FUDie"

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrreatttttttt post FUD guy! Lol! So what you are saying is that ATI has many many many design wins and they are a successful company. Uhm, ooook. Where is the relevance in that? WTF does that mean?

Another thing I have noticed in these forums is that ATI luvers have decided to be the authors of "how to define cheats/optimizations" and that they have also reserved the right to change those definitions based on the current status of ATI hardware/drivers. Rofl! What may have been a cheat last hardware generation is now an optimization this generation since ATI is doing it. This stuff is great. Keep it coming. Makes you want to leave the world of IT and become a psychologist just to study why some peeps will sit in front of a computer for hours a day attacking other people and defending a vendor just because he has adopted some strange fascination with that particular IHV. What is even more amazing is the irrational things they will say just to defend the honor of their "favorite ihv".

To the death for my IHV!

ondaedg speaks the truth. FUDie should really listen here. Of course when is a person who has the nickname of FUD going to really listen to anything, no matter the amount of common sense.