"Artsy" Wii? A Rant *spinoff

[Shifty Geezer]

The PS2, Xbox, and GC can all do "emotive." They just can't do "lifelike." But you know what? It deesn't matter, because in video games, the emotive parts happen in cutscenes, which often are CG...

In existing games it's done in cutscenes. You have emotive story cutscene, followed by action gameplay, followed by emotive story cutscene, followed by action gameplay... The emotive 'artistry' is often interspersed with the gameplay elements, rather than fundamental to it. Of course, some artists create art within the game, like ICO. But if you want to move things forward, and get that emotional power of the cutscene throught every part of your game, rather than just at brief intervals, you need something capable of the cutscene emotional power in the game engine. That means at least having the quality of the scripted animations within the game. The closest I've experienced to that was FFX's emotive actions, which showed how the characters felt, but were very wooden and didn't flow too well. Idon't recall any game with behavioural animations blended in with the game, so the way they walk, run, talk, stand still, etc. shows their feelings. That's one example of where more power can bring more emotional involvement. There's probably a lot of others too. Wii on the other hand will perhaps be stuick with the old techniques of interrupting the game to move the story, which is quite like the old silent movies with the interruptions in the action to show the dialogue.

"Right, stop the movie here to tell the audience what the baddy is saying. Okay, start the movie again, and show us some chasing. Stop here and show what the damsel is saying."

"Right, stop the game here to show the audience what the baddy is feeling. Okay, start the game again, and have some fighting. Stop here and show what the hero is feeling."

 

[oli2]

...

Your examples were quite funny, thanks.
Here are other ones (in the reverse) : explain me how heavy shaders or huge resolution serve the emotionnal content of games like GRAW2, Lost Planet and so on ?
What would we do of a "facial animated" Mario ?

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Here are other ones (in the reverse) : explain me how heavy shaders or huge resolution serve the emotionnal content of games like GRAW2, Lost Planet and so on ?
What would we do of a "facial animated" Mario ?

Those things aren't trying to be art. They're games. And for those that want to create games, Wii is a great platform. Hecker's point was Nintenod don't value games as art, hence his rather odd but I think relevant reference to use of 'art' in the websites. Sony is affliating itself to the idea of consoles as an artform. Nintendo isn't. Nintendo takes the public stance that consoles are for having fun with games. Thus if you're wanting to create art, the Wii doesn't seem to be a good choice, as the hardware isn't there, nor the wide-scale support of the parent company.

For most gamers it's got to be a non-issue. We've had art before in the likes of ICO and it hasn't sold well. Most people do have consoles in order to play games and have fun. I know I do! But for artists who couldn't care less about pandering to the philistine masses, and just want to create without being tied to tiresome concerns like earning a living, they appear flustered with Wii - a device that may become the most popular console ever, yet doesn't allow them to practice they art. That would be like Mozart in Vienna, wanting to create his artistic works, but creating instead
the popular music of the times that he could sell. Popular music that these days we count as art!

 

[Scott_Arm]

Those things aren't trying to be art. They're games. And for those that want to create games, Wii is a great platform. Hecker's point was Nintenod don't value games as art, hence his rather odd but I think relevant reference to use of 'art' in the websites. Sony is affliating itself to the idea of consoles as an artform. Nintendo isn't. Nintendo takes the public stance that consoles are for having fun with games. Thus if you're wanting to create art, the Wii doesn't seem to be a good choice, as the hardware isn't there, nor the wide-scale support of the parent company.

For most gamers it's got to be a non-issue. We've had art before in the likes of ICO and it hasn't sold well. Most people do have consoles in order to play games and have fun. I know I do! But for artists who couldn't care less about pandering to the philistine masses, and just want to create without being tied to tiresome concerns like earning a living, they appear flustered with Wii - a device that may become the most popular console ever, yet doesn't allow them to practice they art. That would be like Mozart in Vienna, wanting to create his artistic works, but creating instead
the popular music of the times that he could sell. Popular music that these days we count as art!

I still don't believe the technology or support of the console manufacturer has anything to do with whether you can create art on the system. Checking the website for references is pretty lame. The Wii does not cater to his particular to his needs, but not all artists have the same needs.

 

[dobwal]

Could be. But I dont take that lame rant of him serious after reading he thinks nintendo doesnt view games as a artform and MS and Sony do. I mean, nintendo probably produced more games that qualify as art than MS and Sony did together.

Besides that I dont see why he calls the Wii a slow piece of shit if spore itself looks like something wich could run on N64.

He must be mentally disturbed if he thinks any one of the console makers view gamemaking as an artform. Sony, MS and Nintendo are in the business of selling consoles and not in the recreation of providing art to the world.

They may tell you its art or artful, but in their minds all they see is dollar signs.

 

[Inane_Dork]

... And all is said ! ... Kudos to you.
Some (including Hecker obviously) seem to have difficulties to trully understand the path chosen by Nintendo and its strengths.

IMO, Hecker is clearly thinking more along the lines of Spector than Miyamoto. Spector is trying to get more people into gaming by creating better stories and sharing the director's chair with the gamer. Miyamoto is trying to get more people into gaming by making people happy. See the difference? Neither is wrong, but Spector's concept is more "mature" than Miyamoto's. I put "mature" in quotes because that's not quite the right word but I don't know what the right word is.

 

[dobwal]

In existing games it's done in cutscenes. You have emotive story cutscene, followed by action gameplay, followed by emotive story cutscene, followed by action gameplay... The emotive 'artistry' is often interspersed with the gameplay elements, rather than fundamental to it. Of course, some artists create art within the game, like ICO. But if you want to move things forward, and get that emotional power of the cutscene throught every part of your game, rather than just at brief intervals, you need something capable of the cutscene emotional power in the game engine. That means at least having the quality of the scripted animations within the game. The closest I've experienced to that was FFX's emotive actions, which showed how the characters felt, but were very wooden and didn't flow too well. Idon't recall any game with behavioural animations blended in with the game, so the way they walk, run, talk, stand still, etc. shows their feelings. That's one example of where more power can bring more emotional involvement. There's probably a lot of others too. Wii on the other hand will perhaps be stuick with the old techniques of interrupting the game to move the story, which is quite like the old silent movies with the interruptions in the action to show the dialogue.

"Right, stop the movie here to tell the audience what the baddy is saying. Okay, start the movie again, and show us some chasing. Stop here and show what the damsel is saying."

"Right, stop the game here to show the audience what the baddy is feeling. Okay, start the game again, and have some fighting. Stop here and show what the hero is feeling."

I have no idea what you are talking about and fail to see how what you are describing is technically limited on the Wii.

Cutscenes are often used to move the story along because they force the user to relinquish control and allow the game to be treated like a film. Dynamic camera angles, tight focus to show details and other aspects of shooting a scene all help to relay emotion and mood.

How much emotion can a controllable character show using the back of his head or through first person? If emotion is brought forth through facial animations why give a gamer the ability to distract him or herself from seeing those animations?

Tell me how capable a film would be in telling the story and showing emotion if the viewer had direct control of the camera?

 

[tongue_of_colicab]

IMO, Hecker is clearly thinking more along the lines of Spector than Miyamoto. Spector is trying to get more people into gaming by creating better stories and sharing the director's chair with the gamer. Miyamoto is trying to get more people into gaming by making people happy. See the difference? Neither is wrong, but Spector's concept is more "mature" than Miyamoto's. I put "mature" in quotes because that's not quite the right word but I don't know what the right word is.

Cant they just mix the two? I really miss games with great stories because for me that is a big reason to play large games. But at the same time I also still want them to be fun because I wont spend 60 hours playing a game if I dont have any fun. Its like reading a book, the story must be good, but its also has to be written in such a way that the good story is fun to read.

 

[Turok]

While The Legend of Zelda:TP is clear evidence that Nintendo does kind of care about games as an art form, games like Wii Sports and Wario Ware contradict this. (mind you, they're still fun, but this isn't what his rant was about)

 

[DeadlyNinja]

Wanna quote that?

"Oh noes! Someone actually said something negative about the Wii! Slander him!"

The fact some of you are not even interacting with his points indicates that what he said may have some substance.

More like "Oh noes! Someone actually said something stupid and we should just let him be!"

"To illustrate his point, he searched for references to games as art on all three console manufacturers web sites. While he found numerous such references on both the official PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360 sites, Wii.com had none at all. He then shared quotes from executives at Sony and Microsoft talking about games as a serious artistic medium, and then a quote from a Nintendo executive saying the company only wanted to make "fun" games."

Heavens forbid that games should be fun. I remember when I fell in love with the Atari games cause they were able to push 10 trillion polygons a second or the super intelligent enemies in Tetris Attack. Oh wait, he goes off to their official website for search references to back up his point!?

 

[Scott_Arm]

While The Legend of Zelda:TP is clear evidence that Nintendo does kind of care about games as an art form, games like Wii Sports and Wario Ware contradict this. (mind you, they're still fun, but this isn't what his rant was about)

Why is wario wario less artful than any other game like Zelda?

 

[Turok]

Well, aside from not creating a invigorating, immersive experience, nothing.

 

[Teasy]

His comments weren't designed to be controversial? Dear me I've heard it all now... While I'm sure he actually believes some semblence of what he said, there's no doubt that the school yard language used is there purely to cause a fuss.

 

[Scott_Arm]

Well, aside from not creating a invigorating, immersive experience, nothing.

I believe you're describing a good game, but not necessarily a qualification for art.

 

[fearsomepirate]

Well, aside from not creating a invigorating, immersive experience, nothing.

Neither does Andy Warhol. I think Wario Ware is about as an invigorating franchise as is out there.

 

[dantruon]

why doesnt he STHU and try to finish Spore, how long has that game been in development? well its been 7 years.

 

[Inane_Dork]

Cant they just mix the two? I really miss games with great stories because for me that is a big reason to play large games. But at the same time I also still want them to be fun because I wont spend 60 hours playing a game if I dont have any fun. Its like reading a book, the story must be good, but its also has to be written in such a way that the good story is fun to read.

I would imagine that most games from Spector and Miyamoto have both, but obviously something has to suffer. It's extraordinary to get excellence in both. Personally, as long as both types are coming down the pipe, I'm happy. I love XBLA-type games. I love big long RPGs. The only thing I hate is having to pick between the two.

Heavens forbid that games should be fun.

I could just as easily say, "Heaven forbid that games should have a story." And I would be just as right as you. Your complaint is the equivalent of mocking Hollywood for making movies other than comedies. Not all games are focused on fun. Not all games are focused on telling/creating memorable stories.

If all you care about are the fun games, that's perfectly fine. Just don't act like everyone agrees with you.

 

[Refreshment]

Does Mr. Hecker want to grab some attention? Of course he does, the kind of language he employs is proof enough of that. He could have expressed the same ideas in a more polite manner.

He does have some "valid" points, but he also has some questionable ones.

So you cant percibe games as art in all previous generations to x360 and PS3?

AI and advanced physics. We gamers are all for it. Btw, wich games in this generation of consoles enhance the gameplay by employing advanced AI and physics interaction? A small percentage.
Look at Halo 1, it had the best AI in a shooter both in the console and PC realm for years. The thing is must developers dont invest time in advanced AI.

Finally, give me a released next gen game that can top the RE4 experience. Haha.

Btw, i do think that Nintendo should have released a system with better specs.

 

[ninzel]

So now every game,movie,book,TV show or any other form of media has to be some deep and serious opus?

 

[cthellis42]

For most gamers it's got to be a non-issue. We've had art before in the likes of ICO and it hasn't sold well.

Might I add that the dissolution of Clover following the release of the quite-possibly-best-game-ever Okami is one of the great gaming travesties of our time.

<sigh>