Are we living in a computer simulation?

Chalnoth said:
1. Quantization is not simply a choice of integer values.
2. There are many facts about the universe that are just pure math. They can't be altered no matter how different another universe is, such as statistical mechanics.
3. Since statistical mechanics is the basis for thermodynamics, and since thermodynamics sets limits upon how much information is stored in the observable universe, the demands are just too tremendous to simulate the entire universe.
4. Approximations would lead to experimental inconsistencies with fundamental laws. No such inconsistencies have been found.
5. If the computer did not do the calculation in realtime, then it would need to have been in existence for some amount of time much longer than the 15 billion or so years our universe has been around. To think it could be calculated in shorter time is absurd.
6. Inflation produces a universe that is much larger than the observable universe, and nearly infinite. Since we are now very certain we live in a universe that was started by inflation, this makes the information requirements even more absurd.
1. That was a joke, but still, who says it isn't?
2. It's a ridiculous assumption that anything that is valid in this universe has to be valid in another as well.
3. darkblu covered that already.
4. Yet. Approximations can kick in anywhere we can't get enough precision of measurement anyway.
5. So? How do you know time matters in our meta-universe? Or that the simulation started with the Big Bang?
6. "Nearly infinite" is as meaningless as "too tremendous". Maybe the universe just wraps around? Or precision breaks down when you reach the "edge". Just expanding the universe does not necessarily increase the amount of information. Maybe everything that's practically beyond our reach is just a coarse approximation?
 
Statistical mechanics cannot be broken, by any means. It governs the behavior of large numbers of particles without any direct ties to the underlying physics. That is to say, you could change the underlying physics all you want, but the general principles of thermodynamics would remain, as they are nothing more than a mathematical fact.

As for "too tremendous," what I mean is that there's no reasonable way for there to be any computer which has sufficient resources.

For example, there is currently reason to believe that space is quantized on the order of the Planck scale, which is about 10^-35 meters. Now, the dark matter density of the universe is about 1e-27 kg/m^3. If the dark matter particles are 1TeV in mass (a fairly high value), then that makes for about 0.001 particles per cubic meter.

Now, the size of the observable universe is about 15 billion light years, or 10^26 meters (spherical volume: 10^79). So in each direction, to store a proper position we need to store said position to an accuracy of 10^61. If we use trinary storage (the most efficient), this requires about 127 trinary bits. For each particle we would need six such numbers just for position and momentum data, or 762 trinary bits.

Now, if we have 0.001 particles per cubic meter, that's roughly 10^77 dark matter particles in the observable universe. So just to store the dark matter particles we can see, we would need roughly 10^80 trinary bits. And that's just storage. The gravitational potential between the dark matter particles inherently takes N(N+1) time to calculate. So your computer would need to be capable of performing 10^160 calculations within a Planck time (About 10^-44 seconds) in order to do the calculations properly. And that's just what we can see (let alone the nearly infinite universe we can't see), and only the gravitational attraction, only dark matter, etc.

Not happening.
 
XMAS
Maybe *everything* in our world, according to some divine set of rules that will never be revealed to us (the human mind could never conceive it. I mean, can you imagine yourself existing as that same god that created this universe? And that shouldn't be too hard for nature to produce, in principle) are just a manifestation that is attempting to fools us (ala the Matrix). In that case, nothing could be certain, not Statistical Mechanics nor Quantum Physics.
 
Chalnoth said:
Statistical mechanics cannot be broken, by any means.

every freaking aparatus can be broken. by definition. the fact that some work most of the time is a goddam bonus - don't you take that for granted!

how about a univese where every attempt to measure a population results in white noise - in it you can stick your statistical mechanics you know where.

It governs the behavior of large numbers of particles without any direct ties to the underlying physics. That is to say, you could change the underlying physics all you want, but the general principles of thermodynamics would remain, as they are nothing more than a mathematical fact.

i know what it does. but you tell me somthing - since when is mathematics a governing law in the universe? i must have missed that moment.. silly me here, i though it was just a presentation/appoximation aparatus..

As for "too tremendous," what I mean is that there's no reasonable way for there to be any computer which has sufficient resources.

how do you know there isnt just one such computer on sale right now at walmart?

For example, there is currently reason to believe that space is quantized on the order of the Planck scale, which is about 10^-35 meters. Now, the dark matter density of the universe is about 1e-27 kg/m^3. If the dark matter particles are 1TeV in mass (a fairly high value), then that makes for about 0.001 particles per cubic meter.

Now, the size of the observable universe is about 15 billion light years, or 10^26 meters (spherical volume: 10^79). So in each direction, to store a proper position we need to store said position to an accuracy of 10^61. If we use trinary storage (the most efficient), this requires about 127 trinary bits. For each particle we would need six such numbers just for position and momentum data, or 762 trinary bits.

Now, if we have 0.001 particles per cubic meter, that's roughly 10^77 dark matter particles in the observable universe. So just to store the dark matter particles we can see, we would need roughly 10^80 trinary bits. And that's just storage. The gravitational potential between the dark matter particles inherently takes N(N+1) time to calculate. So your computer would need to be capable of performing 10^160 calculations within a Planck time (About 10^-44 seconds) in order to do the calculations properly. And that's just what we can see (let alone the nearly infinite universe we can't see), and only the gravitational attraction, only dark matter, etc.

yes. the whole point of yours being?

Not happening.

i'm really tempted to put that as a signature, you know.
'not happening --chalnoth'
 
Take note of the following article:
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/10.12/holytech_pr.html
An ultimate simulation needs an ultimate computer, and the new science of digitalism says that the universe itself is the ultimate computer — actually the only computer. Further, it says, all the computation of the human world, especially our puny little PCs, merely piggybacks on cycles of the great computer. Weaving together the esoteric teachings of quantum physics with the latest theories in computer science, pioneering digital thinkers are outlining a way of understanding all of physics as a form of computation.

From this perspective, computation seems almost a theological process. It takes as its fodder the primeval choice between yes or no, the fundamental state of 1 or 0. After stripping away all externalities, all material embellishments, what remains is the purest state of existence: here/not here. Am/not am. In the Old Testament, when Moses asks the Creator, "Who are you?" the being says, in effect, "Am." One bit. One almighty bit. Yes. One. Exist. It is the simplest statement possible.
 
I'd agree with that statement about the universe basically being one huge computer. But that's fundamentally different from it being a program run inside a computer.
 
Chalnoth
So in that case (if the universe is one huge machine), asking for it's creator or the meaning of the creation becomes a non-sensical endeavor?
 
Just because we can see the analogy of the universe behaving much like a computer, doesn't mean that it is a machine.
 
Chalnoth said:
Statistical mechanics cannot be broken, by any means. It governs the behavior of large numbers of particles without any direct ties to the underlying physics. That is to say, you could change the underlying physics all you want, but the general principles of thermodynamics would remain, as they are nothing more than a mathematical fact.

As for "too tremendous," what I mean is that there's no reasonable way for there to be any computer which has sufficient resources.

For example, there is currently reason to believe that space is quantized on the order of the Planck scale, which is about 10^-35 meters. Now, the dark matter density of the universe is about 1e-27 kg/m^3. If the dark matter particles are 1TeV in mass (a fairly high value), then that makes for about 0.001 particles per cubic meter.

Now, the size of the observable universe is about 15 billion light years, or 10^26 meters (spherical volume: 10^79). So in each direction, to store a proper position we need to store said position to an accuracy of 10^61. If we use trinary storage (the most efficient), this requires about 127 trinary bits. For each particle we would need six such numbers just for position and momentum data, or 762 trinary bits.

Now, if we have 0.001 particles per cubic meter, that's roughly 10^77 dark matter particles in the observable universe. So just to store the dark matter particles we can see, we would need roughly 10^80 trinary bits. And that's just storage. The gravitational potential between the dark matter particles inherently takes N(N+1) time to calculate. So your computer would need to be capable of performing 10^160 calculations within a Planck time (About 10^-44 seconds) in order to do the calculations properly. And that's just what we can see (let alone the nearly infinite universe we can't see), and only the gravitational attraction, only dark matter, etc.

Not happening.
If the world is but information, what makes you think this is the only possible information? what makes you think all possible information is finite? and not infinite?
Running such is quite easy to do with infinite computational resources which would actually be present if information was infinite.;)

By the way excellent link alexsok, seems to summarize my views quite elegantly. Though it's still not as complete as my views at this present stage. The ultimate infinite computer is much much older than this universe, it has no beginning nor end, and it is infinite in size, this universe is but an insignificant portion of it as all universes are. There might be ways to tap into the underlying infinite computational resource that lies at the heart of existence, of all that is. I call this "EXIT" an exit from this imperfect material world, into the divine realm, into the presence of God, it is what I seek.
 
Chalnoth said:
So your computer would need to be capable of performing 10^160 calculations within a Planck time (About 10^-44 seconds) in order to do the calculations properly.
What if all the observers are part of the simulation (so not just "plugged in")? :D Then there's no need for an upper bound on the simulation time of "one tick", right? ;)
 
Then it wouldn't make any sense to have scientists who are probing the nature of reality as part of the simulation. Because then your approximations might get noticed.
 
I call this "EXIT" an exit from this imperfect material world, into the divine realm, into the presence of God, it is what I seek.
And how do you enter his presence? By meditating and entering a trance-like state? By taking psychodelic drugs? By triggering an ODE (out-of-body experience) or an NDE (a near-death one)? Or even by commiting suicide? And if the universe is an infinite computer, then how come we can enter the realm of God, wouldn't that kinda discard this possibility altogether or did you refer to God in metaphorical connotations?

Also, is it even plausible to say that it had no beginning and no end? And what would the process of dying look like in such a universe and will it mean abomination of our personality?
 
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Chalnoth said:
Then it wouldn't make any sense to have scientists who are probing the nature of reality as part of the simulation. Because then your approximations might get noticed.
Wouldn't make any sense to whom? Approximations of what? :)
 
Found some arguments against it:
1. The assumption is that if people start simulating people, they will generally not tell the simulated people they are simulated people. But is that a valid assumption? If most people believe it is unethical to simulate people without telling them they are simulated, the argument fails. Hence, the fact that nobody told us that we are simulated is a case for thinking we might not be simulated.

2. Similarly, there is a lot of suffering in the world. If people simulating people were ethical they would not allow their simulated worlds to contain suffering. So again, the argument assumes that people simulating people are unethical and the validity of that assumption can be questioned.

3. It is striking that there is such a great deal of mathematical logic and consistency in the laws of nature. Such features are not necessary in a simulation. In a simulation there is no need for our heads to contain brains rather than green cheese, for example. And in a simulation we might as well have been given the option to magically move objects from A to B with the flash of a thought. Thus, the fact that no such magic or inconsistency exist is an argument for our world not being a simulation.

4. As the author admits, the argument requires acceptance of the assumption that the hardware doesn't matter for the arrisal of consciousness. I'm skeptical about that. If the biological structure of our brain is in fact a requirement for consciousness, then a computer which simulates the brain has no consciousness, and then the simulation argument fails. Except one could still argue that the space of the universe can contain more biological brains in vats (connected via wires to a computer simulating a world) than it has space for complete biological bodies. That would leave room for the argument that if people start putting brains in vats and simulating worlds for them, the probability is larger that you are a brain in a vat than a complete biological body in the real world.

5. As the author, in effect, admits there is doubt whether his calculations are correct. Maybe more rather than less calculating power is required to simulate a consciousness + environment than nature requires for a direct implementation of a conscious being. For example, suppose we build a very powerful computer, based on nanotechnology of very small detail. If we build such a computer within a simulated world, then for it to work properly all those small nanodetails would have to be simulated rather then that they are directly implemented physically. I would think that this only adds another layer of complexity, such that a computer simulating such a computer would actually have to be larger and more complex than the computer it's simulating. Similarly, if one emulates an Apple on a PC or vice versa, you also generally lose computer speed. This provides a case for turning the whole simulation argument on its head: because a simulation of consciousnessss + environment costs more calculation resources then a direct implementation, we can simulate fewer people than the universe can contain directly. Therefore, the probability we are a real person is larger than the probability we are a simulated person.

6. The validity of counter argument that if the simulation is no longer correct, the computer could simply change our memory content, is questionable. I believe that we can't reason anyway, unless we assume that our brains operate relatively correctly and there is no God in the background playing with our consciousness. However, if you do not make that assumption, then there is still no basis for accepting the simulation argument, for accepting any argument is only reasonable if we have faith in our ability to think straight. It's inconsistent to draw a conclusion based on our reasoning, while that very reasoning is based on the assumption that we can't trust our own reasoning.

7. But the fundamental error is that the whole argument is based on the application of a conclusion about our own world to another world about which we don't know anything. That is invalid. Even if all assumptions about computer power and motives about the people running simulations are correct, this only proves something about beings that we simulate ourselves. For the class of beings consisting of us plus the simulated beings it is correct to say that the probability one of them is simulated is greater than the probability that it is not. But, paradoxically, that's a conclusion only knowable to us, and not to the simulated beings. For it is only valid to apply this reasoning to our world and not to an imagined world above us. It's impossible for us to know or assume that the facts in our world, on which the whole simulation argument is based, are also true in a world above us. For example, any world above us might be a world in which all beings are already made with maximum efficiency, and so has more physical space for directly implemented beings than for simulated beings. In other worlds, the fatal flaw in the whole argument is that it hypothesizes a world above our world, while the very assumption that we are living in a simulation implies it is impossible for us to know anything about what such a world would be like and what would be the motives or actions of its inhabitants. The conclusion that we're probably living in a computer simulation immediately leads to the next conclusion that we can't trust the assumptions which led us to the first conclusion. Thus, the argument destroys itself.

8. The conclusion that we are living in a simulated world inside another world is a violation of Occam's razor.
 
Occam's razor, heh.

That which is is what it is. Equality/Equivalence and Identity exist. These are self-evident truths, that razor holds no ground over them. In order to dismiss that some information can exist, you have to provide a reason or a hypothesis for why it is impossible for such to exist as it is, as mere information. The more information you dismiss as not being so, that is as not being mere information, that is as being not at all, the more reasons/hypotheses you've to provide for this being so.

alexsok said:
And how do you enter his presence? By meditating and entering a trance-like state? By taking psychodelic drugs? By triggering an ODE (out-of-body experience) or an NDE (a near-death one)? Or even by commiting suicide? And if the universe is an infinite computer, then how come we can enter the realm of God, wouldn't that kinda discard this possibility altogether or did you refer to God in metaphorical connotations?


First by opening one's eyes to the nature of the world, and the implications, by seeing both good and evil. It is difficult to take such a journey while blind to the perils that lie ahead, let alone without seeing the actual path. Second by realizing it will also require great sacrifices to undertake this path, and understanding the nature of these. Third by accepting, by willingly taking this path with knowledge of the sacrifices being made. In a way one must be able to willingly shed one's humanity, trascend one's limitations, one must be willing to become more than just a man. In some ways we already are there, within the medium of existence, but with a limited degree of freedom and awareness, it is by attaining a greater level of freedom and a greater level of awareness that one reaches the higher levels of existence.

I have seen the sky outside this cage, I've seen the world outside this cave. My eyes are now open and now I see, that I see, the shackles that bind me, the prison around me, thus it is freedom that I seek.
 
There's a place for knowledge which is based purely upon belief. That's religion.

There's a place for knowledge which can be tested. That's science.

Zidane, you're clearly in the realm of religion in your arguments. Occam's Razor is a superb tool in testing ideas against reality.

I really liked this little bit that aleksok quoted:
It's inconsistent to draw a conclusion based on our reasoning, while that very reasoning is based on the assumption that we can't trust our own reasoning.
Btw, aleksok, would you please link the location you got that list from?
 
Of course this is all about religion. You cannot scientifically disprove the theory that we're living in a simulation, and you could only prove it if there were major flaws or inconsistencies. Or if the meta-beings decided to interfere with the simulation.
 
Chalnoth said:
There's a place for knowledge which is based purely upon belief. That's religion.

There's a place for knowledge which can be tested. That's science.

Zidane, you're clearly in the realm of religion in your arguments. Occam's Razor is a superb tool in testing ideas against reality.
Religion or philosophy? In any case it's not as if it can be easily proven or disproven, but it is my belief that if it's true, as I posit, the final theory, the god equation, will obligatorily and elegantly lead to this conclusion. It sure can be tested, tearing a hole in the fabric of the universe and traversing the landscape of possibilities would be but evidence in favor... something that we may be able to accomplish at some later date.
 
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