Are Sony devs aiming higher?

[Shifty Geezer]

Doesnt 360 have >= triangle setup limit to PS3? SO why do we see what appears to be more geometry in PS3 games footage?

As nAo pointed out, RSX (or rather G70) kicks out more unseen polygons before then, so you're looking at 360 setting up more polygons but they're not getting seen IIRC. Either way, triangle setup isn't the only factor in how many polys you can actually draw. eg. If GPU X can setup 42 billion triangles but only has enough shader power to draw 4 million, and GPU Y can only setup 21 billion triangles but has also has only enough shader power to draw 4 million, what appears on screen will be similar. There's lots of aspects to rendering.

 

[blakjedi]

As nAo pointed out, RSX (or rather G70) kicks out more unseen polygons before then, so you're looking at 360 setting up more polygons but they're not getting seen IIRC. Either way, triangle setup isn't the only factor in how many polys you can actually draw. eg. If GPU X can setup 42 billion triangles but only has enough shader power to draw 4 million, and GPU Y can only setup 21 billion triangles but has also has only enough shader power to draw 4 million, what appears on screen will be similar. There's lots of aspects to rendering.

That is what I was thinking... but doesnt 360 allow more tris to be displayed? Ultimately it doesnt really matter as the highest resolution will give you 2 million pixels/polygons visible not including overdraw... I cant quite put my finger on the geometry issue honestly... it just looks like ps3 has higher geometry output... maybe its the art direction???

I guess teh gist of the thread is that when you see a phenom game highlighted for ps3 you say "yeah thats right! I knew the PS3 could do that..." whereas people respond to 360 like "Wow, the 360 is stronger than I thought!"

I think the renders from e3 05 set the bar really high as to what to expect from PS3 and some of the developers are actually coming quite close to meeting it... whereas it seems like GoW and Halo are the only high bars that MS put front and center to the public...

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I think Sony's first parties are really pushing and are maybe setting a trend. I think more than once we've had some dev or other saying PS3 is a costly machine where you need to make impressive games (thinking Cinema versus DVD talk here?). Maybe at the moment they are aiming higher when it comes to exclusives? But there are some real turkeys out there too. That Sega ghosty game, an FPS I think, looked bad, and Untold Legends isn't set to win any awards based on what's been shown so far. With a pretty extensive list of games for the machines to compare, I dare say such opinions are more in the eye of the beholder.

 

[slider]

That Sega ghosty game, an FPS I think, looked bad

Sorry, not contributing directly but I couldn't NOT answer this... Fifth Phantom Saga is what you're thinking of. I much prefer your version though.

 

[pc999]

I not sure if this what you meant but I think the difference between 360 games and PS3 games is that so far most 360 games seen are made on midleware engines and most are for PC/PS3 too, on the other side Sony had more focus on exclusives made with in house engines which gave them 1) a more distinct look, setting them apart form 360 games 2) using better the HW and the potential of the console not dealing with the bottleneck of midleware/crossplatform games.

I think that it is more MS fault because of the games they showed lack the distinctive look of exclusive games with a in house engine for a certain game, when they show exclusive games the same way they will look much more in par with Sony IMO.

 

[TheChefO]

Not sure how much an influence it's having but as pc999 pointed out, most 360 games are built from pc games first and parallel ported to 360. A bigger issue which was stated many months ago was developer teams. At about the time of e3 2005 most pubs, devs and analysts thought ps3 would do a repeat of ps2 and dominate the market. As any smart business would do they backed the strong horse with their best dev teams to showcase their abilities to the largest audience.

What they are starting to realize now is that ps3 is not the guarantee they thought (or were promised) it would be. This should start to materialize in higher quality games being developed from the ground up for 360. If not for exclusives then to at least to get engines up and running which will enable higher quality ports/multiplats. It will probably take another year or two before we start seeing a good deal of these games based on engines which take advantage of 360 in any meaningful way and the dependance on ue3 dies down (or ue3 gets severely tweaked to match 360's capabilities but I doubt it as they would be more likely to invest heavily in ue4 tailored to each machine).

 

[one]

Not sure how much an influence it's having but as pc999 pointed out, most 360 games are built from pc games first and parallel ported to 360. A bigger issue which was stated many months ago was developer teams. At about the time of e3 2005 most pubs, devs and analysts thought ps3 would do a repeat of ps2 and dominate the market. As any smart business would do they backed the strong horse with their best dev teams to showcase their abilities to the largest audience.

What they are starting to realize now is that ps3 is not the guarantee they thought (or were promised) it would be. This should start to materialize in higher quality games being developed from the ground up for 360.

Regardless of PS3, why do you think the situation will change from the state where PC games are ported to 360 to the state where game development no longer begins in the PC realm? The standard spec of PC is getting stronger every year, besides the easier portability from PC is one of the strengths of XNA.

 

[PARANOiA]

However, I will admit that MS didn't show off any historical giant crabs or neat features like real-time weapon change, so maybe the PS3 was ahead of where MS was.

Can I ask a silly question... what's this "real time weapon change" that I keep hearing of?

And yes, I googled and wiki'ed.

 

[rabidrabbit]

From a presenter of game "Genki" at Sony E3 conference I think, where on stage while playing the game he said the game features "real time weapon change".
A bit silly comment yes, but also blown out of porportion and shred to pieces by the usual hyenas and now part of the "Filthy Lies and Deceives of Sony Computer Entertainment, Part XIII" ongoing series.

 

[hey69]

if you compare it with this, i would say YES

@

thechefo : What they are starting to realize now is that ps3 is not the guarantee they thought (or were promised) it would be

wtf, the console isnt released yet, thats a bold thing to say to be honest

 

[Nesh]

Man thats one fugly image. What game is it?

 

[scificube]

Man thats one fugly image. What game is it?

Used to be Perfect Dark Zero. The art direction changed...won't comment if it still turned out fugly or not.

 

[TheChefO]

Regardless of PS3, why do you think the situation will change from the state where PC games are ported to 360 to the state where game development no longer begins in the PC realm? The standard spec of PC is getting stronger every year, besides the easier portability from PC is one of the strengths of XNA.

I still think it will get a large number of pc ports - as you pointed out xna should only make the process even easier once it's finished. My comments were aimed more at the change in mix than a complete change of direction. Getting more devs to make 360 games from scratch than port pc games which is hardly the case now.

What they are starting to realize now is that ps3 is not the guarantee they thought (or were promised) it would be

wtf, the console isnt released yet, thats a bold thing to say to be honest

Note the bolded word "guarantee". Not saying it won't turn out to be the most fantabulous system in the world. Just that people are realising it's a bit more of a gamble than they once thought.

 

[blakjedi]

Between GC and TGS we will get to see whether or not that extra year of TLC that the software on the PS3 was worth the wait or not... I am getting the sense that so far people's pre-first impressions are very positive regarding recent PS3 stills and movies...

 

[expletive]

Between GC and TGS we will get to see whether or not that extra year of TLC that the software on the PS3 was worth the wait or not... I am getting the sense that so far people's pre-first impressions are very positive regarding recent PS3 stills and movies...

I think another good question is if its appropriate to be comparing PS3 launch titles to 360 launch titles or should we be comparing ps3 launch titles with Q4 360 titles.

I get the impression that PS3 devs have had a cell and g70 since about the time 360 devs received a xenos and xenon so i think theyre about in line, but i think as a group we should solve this now, before launch, because its that important!

 

[TheChefO]

I think another good question is if its appropriate to be comparing PS3 launch titles to 360 launch titles or should we be comparing ps3 launch titles with Q4 360 titles.

I get the impression that PS3 devs have had a cell and g70 since about the time 360 devs received a xenos and xenon so i think theyre about in line, but i think as a group we should solve this now, before launch, because its that important!

Actually devs had ps3 dev hw that better represented final ps3 before 360 devs. So it should be putting out superior software based on this metric of dev time with hw. Then also factor in the class of dev teams working on ps3 hw vs 360 hw and it pushes this theory even further.

Counterpoint obviously would be 360 dev software was better than ps3 so better teams and more time were required etc but we'll see how they fair. Some titles are certainly starting to shine on ps3. Makes me wonder what would happen if these first rate dev teams spent a good chunk of time taking advantage of all the tricks 360 offers.

Next year we should start to see what these systems are truly capable of.

 

[blakjedi]

Makes me wonder if software houses are putting their best teams on PS3 titles and secondstring stringing x360 titles...? Sega putting the legendary AM2 on PS3 VT3 might mean that Sega wants a better version on PS3...

 

[expletive]

Makes me wonder if software houses are putting their best teams on PS3 titles and secondstring stringing x360 titles...? Sega putting the legendary AM2 on PS3 VT3 might mean that Sega wants a better version on PS3...

As stated in the Virtua Tennis comparison thread, someone from Sega characterized their relationship with the PS3 as "hitching their wagon to Sony" on a 1up podcast. One of the reasons with the similarity betweeen RSX and the lindbergh board but also becuase they do feel Sony is still in a dominant position regardless of the MS head start. So yeah wrt Sega, i think when given the choice the PS3 gets the big piece of chicken.

 

[AW0L]

another way to look at things is that 360 wil get alot of pc ports and dx10 games. and as time goes on pc game makers are making games for the latest graphic cards and faster processors speeds. so they might be not trying to make the best looking games on consoles but instead trying to figure out how to get this really good looking pc game to work on the consoles kinda like what happened with hl2

 

[liverkick]

Actually devs had ps3 dev hw that better represented final ps3 before 360 devs. So it should be putting out superior software based on this metric of dev time with hw.

Well, on the flip side there's been plenty of hullabaloo about Cell being so much harder to work with. As well as the aformentioned "superior dev tools and software" MS trumpets as their advantage. These disparate philosophies (software/hardware, ease of use/performance) obviously have their respective pros and cons. So I wouldn't really want to conflate these timelines as they're both unique architectures and environments. A beta stage is a beta stage regardless.

Makes me wonder what would happen if these first rate dev teams spent a good chunk of time taking advantage of all the tricks 360 offers.

MS hasn't had first rate devs developing for their console? You're gonna hurt some feelings.