Are PS3 devs using the two mem pools for textures?

[-tkf-]

(real braking distances, excessive grip, etc).

You have to come up with more than these 2 examples, that imho hasn´t been proved to be "a problem".

 

[Cheezdoodles]

You have to come up with more than these 2 examples, that imho hasn´t been proved to be "a problem".

They have been proven a problem, but if you want to discuss this again, talk in the GTHD thread. (Even Arwin, the biggest GT fanboy on the forum agrees with me when it comes to grip)

 

[phat]

They have been proven a problem, but if you want to discuss this again, talk in the GTHD thread. (Even Arwin, the biggest GT fanboy on the forum agrees with me when it comes to grip)

The thing is, grip is just a parameter. If the designer chooses to exaggerate grip in the game, perhaps he's doing it for playability? Tires are highly variable in this regard, and their grip can be used as "equalizers" to balance gameplay. Or perhaps the grip isn't exaggerated at all, and that the game is simply assuming some really good tires you can also get, but don't normally find as stock, in real life?

To myopically focus on a parameter while ignoring the core of the physics model is simply... typical of internet forums.

 

[Cheezdoodles]

Or perhaps the grip isn't exaggerated at all, and that the game is simply assuming some really good tires you can also get, but don't normally find as stock, in real life?.

Nope. Not unless they are assuming stock Merc CLK AMG tires are way better than what my CLK's Pirelli PZero Corsa tires (thats €450 per tire, this is "stock" for cars like Ferrari F430, and the Enzo, not your average GT4 car)

 

[Arwin]

Let's get some things out of the way. The grip in GT4 is a little too much, as Ostepop has indicated, I agree with him on that one. Especially on certain cars, it is very obvious if you know the real-life version of the car. Take the popular MX-5, which is a very driftable car, even stock. You can't get it to drift in GT4.

However, it's direct competitors in the console space have not gotten grip right either. In Forza, for instance, grip is off in the other direction - there's by far not enough of it.

And in every other aspect of driving physics, GT4 stands head and shoulders above just about any other console racer. It has some awesome driving force feedback too, that in combination with the 900 degree wheel that was developed and released specifically for GT4, make for an incredibly convincing experience on many levels. For every car that isn't convincing enough, you can find plenty of cars that are more than convincing enough. There is little that can compare to driving on the Nurburgring in GT4 in an NSX, or 3400S, or even a Golf V GTi. If you take N1 tires, then you'll have little enough grip.

Anyway, more important to me right now, is that GT:HD has already fixed most of GT4's problems. So the future for lovers of realistic driving models like me looks very bright. The MX5 in GT:HD drives like a dream, almost exactly as it should. I'm still waiting for some MX5 owners to comment on it, but based on what I know of the car and how people reacted to the GT4 version of it, I think they got it spot on this time. I can't wait until I get my hands on GT5 Prologue.

 

[Fafalada]

Let's get some things out of the way. The grip in GT4 is a little too much, as Ostepop has indicated, I agree with him on that one. Especially on certain cars, it is very obvious if you know the real-life version of the car.

Thing is though, 100% realism of car parameters is rather incompatible with the concept of video-game.
People just don't drive game-cars the way they would a real car (even with a wheel), and if you make a game that requires that, it'll be considered unplayable by 99% of the gaming auidence (including most reviewers).
Ultimately that may be perfectly fine for niche-targeted simulators, but GT series has a pretty hefty mainstream appeal...

 

[Arwin]

Thing is though, 100% realism of car parameters is rather incompatible with the concept of video-game.
People just don't drive game-cars the way they would a real car (even with a wheel), and if you make a game that requires that, it'll be considered unplayable by 99% of the gaming auidence (including most reviewers).
Ultimately that may be perfectly fine for niche-targeted simulators, but GT series has a pretty hefty mainstream appeal...

Nah, I disagree. First of all, in a series like GT you have such a vast amount of different cars, and many of them simply don't have the power to become difficult enough to drive. Remember, these cars are based on real life cars, and they are quite driveable in real life, and many of them can be really hard to crash in real life, because even there they have assists to help you stay on the road. Cars like an MX-5 drive like a dream in real life, and if that is emulated in GT as completely as possible, then great!

Sure, for the faster cars. You can always implement assists afterwards, but the realism should be there, and it's a lot of fun if the realism is there - it makes driving a difficult car like a Lamborghini that much more fun, because it is as hard as the real thing. But if you want to drive a Lamborghini just because it looks nice, then that's where you put in the TCS and ASM assists.

The thrill of driving something as close to the real thing as possible is what makes the game exciting. The only thing you can leave out for me is mechanical failure and damage, because those are elements of the real thing that I can definitely do without.

 

[Fafalada]

and many of them simply don't have the power to become difficult enough to drive

Try something like Type-S and then tell me that - and all they really screwed up was getting the input-device assists right.

I've seen the stuff required for making a realistic physical model playable (especially playable with a standard controller) and it just doesn't work like "ok, we got the simulation right and parameters match the real vehichle, it's playable".
GT series always 'cheated' with friction in the past, as well as doing other things that improved playability.
I can't say I dwelled on it enough to see how much of that stuff can be disabled through various options though, I was generally looking at the stock driving model that most users experience when turning the game on for the first time.

 

[Arwin]

Try something like Type-S and then tell me that - and all they really screwed up was getting the input-device assists right.

I've seen the stuff required for making a realistic physical model playable (especially playable with a standard controller) and it just doesn't work like "ok, we got the simulation right and parameters match the real vehichle, it's playable".
GT series always 'cheated' with friction in the past, as well as doing other things that improved playability.
I can't say I dwelled on it enough to see how much of that stuff can be disabled through various options though, I was generally looking at the stock driving model that most users experience when turning the game on for the first time.

Oh there are definitely different parameters set for when you steer with the d-pad - the speed at which you can turn the wheels for steering is then adjusted automatically for you. But when you steer with the analog stick, then the difference between using the wheel or the analog stick becomes fairly small. And grip levels are the same for all three, although because of the d-pad assists, it may seem you have more grip when using the d-pad.

There are different settings for the different wheels also. Some, which have strong force feedback, even have an option which is like having power steering on a real car, making it easier to just turn the wheel.

I've looked into these things in great detail. There aren't going to be many people who figured out you can put a GT car into neutral while driving for instance, or (related) how to switch down several gears at once.

 

[archangelmorph]

No offense Arwin, but this probably isn't the thread for your discussion..

 

[Arwin]

Sorry! It's all phat's fault. He didn't listen to Ostepop, I didn't even notice we weren't in the GT:HD thread, and now we're here. Mods can delete any message they like here, certainly mine.

 

[Shompola]

PD are expert in creating fake graphical effects (i.e. 2D trees in the distance that look like 3D trees) making simple things look complex.

Great simulation isn't about making simple things look complex, but making complex things look simple and natural. That's where they fail with almost everything related to simulation (real braking distances, excessive grip, etc).

Talent and money are two different things. They sure are talented with graphics but they're very untalented when it comes to other factors.

As for the money, undoubtedly there are instances where a lack of budget gives rise to creativity that would not have been necessary had the producers been able to throw money at a problem, which can in turn result in a stronger overall game (not gaming wise, a real life example of this, that classy and historical movie -Jaws-, is the best one that I can think of).

Your statement is an example as clear a sign of hype as you'll ever find: assuming that because a game has a budget, it's devoid of creativity. The paradox, indeed, is that in making such a statement, people are tacitly admitting to an inability to recognize creativity (or a lack thereof) on their own.

Don't get so defensive, I was stating the obvious thing, PD as a company has more resources than Bizarre Creations. Simple, if you have more money and time (money among other things plays a big role on how long you can work on a project!), chances are your product will get better than if you did not.

 

[Cyan]

Oh there are definitely different parameters set for when you steer with the d-pad - the speed at which you can turn the wheels for steering is then adjusted automatically for you. But when you steer with the analog stick, then the difference between using the wheel or the analog stick becomes fairly small. And grip levels are the same for all three, although because of the d-pad assists, it may seem you have more grip when using the d-pad.

There are different settings for the different wheels also. Some, which have strong force feedback, even have an option which is like having power steering on a real car, making it easier to just turn the wheel.

I've looked into these things in great detail. There aren't going to be many people who figured out you can put a GT car into neutral while driving for instance, or (related) how to switch down several gears at once.

How are you doing? I did *study* the differences between the pad and the wheel playing Forza and I shared my impressions in FM2 forums. The wheel is just authentic, while the gamepad is a bit arcadey. Afaik, T10 staff have had a really hard time trying to figure out how to make the game actually playable with the gamepad. And yes, they have achieved their goal since it is quite playable (sometimes "overpowered", though).

I've played Live for Speed using the keyboard and the game doesn't make concessions. That is to say, it won't work like the real thing so you're pretty much screwed. That's realism.

Regarding the gamepad (FM2), the travelled distance of the analog throttle control is much shorter than a real life car's pedal so it's going to be much easier to go from 0 to max throttle and thus harder to control in certain situations.

I did test the steering and I noticed that the wheel (Telemetry view) just turns like 45º. It does turn a bit more -up to 90º- if the car is out of control or rear wheels are skidding. It does not matter how hard you try and how much time you hold the gamepad's stick left or right, in good grip situations the wheel eventually comes against a limit and stops rotating (locked-wheel state).

The conclusion is; When using the pad the game compensates your movements and makes educated "guesses" regarding what you want to do.

Example, you are taking a right turn at a speed that, while not being really tight, still requires you to fully move the analogue stick to the right. The game takes all of that into account and estimates that while you want to really turn the steering wheel, you don't want full lock, so it adjusts for you.

With a steering wheel there's none of that, you go full lock with the wheel. Hope this clears things up a bit.

In any case, ok let's get back on the original topic here. I'm SO sorry, I'd like to add that, imo, talent is more important than budget to take full advantage of the two mem pools.

The question still remains, are the two pools free? Is there a spot where diminishing returns start and there is nothing talent can do about it?

Shompola --sorry m8. I didn't want to sound harsh. Trust me, I was on the point of adding (regarding the hype thing) something along the lines; "that's something I see everyday and I myself did many times" but for whatever reason I didn't.

Cheers

 

[Gubbi]

Regarding the gamepad (FM2), the travelled distance of the analog throttle control is much shorter than a real life car's pedal so it's going to be much easier to go from 0 to max throttle and thus harder to control in certain situations.

Lingenfelter Vette on stock tires

I did test the steering and I noticed that the wheel (Telemetry view) just turns like 45º. It does turn a bit more -up to 90º- if the car is out of control or rear wheels are skidding. It does not matter how hard you try and how much time you hold the gamepad's stick left or right, in good grip situations the wheel eventually comes against a limit and stops rotating (locked-wheel state).

The conclusion is; When using the pad the game compensates your movements and makes educated "guesses" regarding what you want to do.

I'd expect the game to reduce the angle with higher speed. Since at high speed you'd never have more than 5-10º angle on the front wheels. The cars would be impossible to control if it mapped the few milimeters of full right turn on the analog stick to a 45º front wheel angle at 300km/h.

I don't think the game "guesses", I just think it reduces sensitivity with higher speed in a straight forward fashion.

Cheers

 

[Fafalada]

I don't think the game "guesses", I just think it reduces sensitivity with higher speed in a straight forward fashion.

That's exactly what games do (it's a curve relative to speed, maximum turning angle is reduced, sometimes also speed of wheel turning).
It's not only done for controllers either - wheels that aren't 1080 generally require similar "hacks" as well.