AOD vs Blu-ray revisited...
- Thread starter PC-Engine
- Start date
What does it matter? The majority of the steering commitee members (not to mention the founders) are either in the Blu-Ray group, or backers of it... Sounds more like natural selection to me...
In any case the DVD Forum encompasses only DVD format, and has no say outside of that. The whole point of the then consortium was to hammer out the differences between two formats that were competing for the DVD spec. Either:
a.) The DVD Forum steering committee eventually hammers out a compromise that they can all reasonably accept.
b.) A new consortium is formed to deal with the DVD format's successor.
c.) One group will push it's format out and the industry will simply follow (e.g. Sony and Philips with the CD)
d.) Each group will push it's format out and it will pretty much be a battle for survival of the fittest... (e.g. the ever popular VHS vs. Beta (VHS winning in consumer space, Beta winning in professional space))
Besides, I'm not sure what the Justice Department can do anyways... I mean it's not like this is something that falls strictly under US civil/criminal law jurisdiction...
Really? Must've not gotten that one...
Although another Outlook virus made it's rounds today... (*hugs my mac*)
News to me... Why would there even be a government-backed "LCD research" initiative anyways? As it is, Sony doesn't do much of anything with LCDs other than manufacturing... Most of the display research is focussed towards OLEDs not LCDs.
The nature of the government LCD venture is a little curious to me, but I can certainly see why they'd be worried about a major contributor pursuing a private venture along the same lines simultaneously. And I can certainly see why it's more appealing to Samsung and Sony both to consolidate their resources and pursue a private initiative.
Re: HD-DVD-RW spec approved WMV9 added to codec list
So basically we're gonna have more than one standard? Oh dear...
PC-Engine said:
So basically we're gonna have more than one standard? Oh dear...
I dont think this will go ahead very rapidly, the licensing situation with H.264 is piss poor.
The WM-9 licensing seems a lot better, but of course with the specs only (officially) circulating among a select and localized group of companies new patent claims could easily surface whenever it becomes an official standard (and without open drafts and an open standard process judges will likely look more favourable on "late" patent claims against it).
Both licenses are time limited, and offer no limits on rate increases after they expire apart from the standard "reasonable and non discriminatory" stuff.
The WM-9 licensing seems a lot better, but of course with the specs only (officially) circulating among a select and localized group of companies new patent claims could easily surface whenever it becomes an official standard (and without open drafts and an open standard process judges will likely look more favourable on "late" patent claims against it).
Both licenses are time limited, and offer no limits on rate increases after they expire apart from the standard "reasonable and non discriminatory" stuff.
I'm a little unknowing of the role of this DVD forum :?
What role did they have in current dvd rom and dvd +r, -r, +rw, -rw and ram formats?
DVD+R and DVD+RW are quite popular, and to me it looks like they are surpassing the popularity of DVD- and DVD-Ram formats.
I have been under impression that DVD+ format was sort of 'rebel' format, not 'approved' by DVD forum, am I wrong?
What role did they have in current dvd rom and dvd +r, -r, +rw, -rw and ram formats?
DVD+R and DVD+RW are quite popular, and to me it looks like they are surpassing the popularity of DVD- and DVD-Ram formats.
I have been under impression that DVD+ format was sort of 'rebel' format, not 'approved' by DVD forum, am I wrong?
rabidrabbit said:
And i still don't know what the difference is between the "+" and the "-" models... Although nowadays drives are compatible with both... What is the distinction anyway?
donno, i've bought only +r and +rw discs, 'cos my Plextor can write faster on +'s.
Do the -'es need some formatting prior use? There's also some advantages in post editing in favour of some format, but can't remember which.
Do the -'es need some formatting prior use? There's also some advantages in post editing in favour of some format, but can't remember which.
Joe DeFuria
Legend
The + and -R formats are for all intents and purposes mostly identical in terms of functionality / compatibility. Though as noted, the + format tends to lead the -R format in terms of burning speed.
However, there are some notable advantages of the +RW format over the -RW format. The +RW format is more flexible with respect to "on the fly" editing (adding and changing DVD menus, chapter points, inserting and deleting video, etc.) This doesn't matter too much for PC drives (where you re-author with software), but can make a big difference with set-top devices.
The +RW format is also superior to -RW when it comes to using it as a non-video PC data storage device. (I'd have to go and refresh my memory of exactly why though.)
Try www.dvdplusrw.org which is obviously biased toward the + formats, but as far as I can tell, factually accurate.
However, there are some notable advantages of the +RW format over the -RW format. The +RW format is more flexible with respect to "on the fly" editing (adding and changing DVD menus, chapter points, inserting and deleting video, etc.) This doesn't matter too much for PC drives (where you re-author with software), but can make a big difference with set-top devices.
The +RW format is also superior to -RW when it comes to using it as a non-video PC data storage device. (I'd have to go and refresh my memory of exactly why though.)
Try www.dvdplusrw.org which is obviously biased toward the + formats, but as far as I can tell, factually accurate.
Re: HD-DVD-RW spec approved WMV9 added to codec list
Seems like it. ...which will only make it slightly more confusing than normal, what with all the plusses and minuses and assorted silliness until players sort out the format support.london-boy said:
randycat99
Veteran
I propose a DVD$RW format. All "for", say "I"...
Mmm... clusterfucks...
The WSJ, in a front page story on 3/15, sheds some light into the political intrigues and the motivations of the companies involved in a potential format war (could bring us back to the early days of Beta vs. VHS).
Many people suspected that what was at stake wasn't necessarily the development of a format with the most technical merit. This article hints at the obstinacy, pettiness and deviousness of the parties involved.
Sony pushed into blue laser after not getting enough of its patents into the current DVD design. Of course it wasn't just pride, as the Japanese companies in general wanted to move up the value chain after seeing DVD hardware commoditized by the Taiwanese.
In late 1998, Sony engineer Hiroshi Ogawa successfully got the blue laser to read a disc. His goal was to make the storage layer just .1 mm thick (DVD is .6 mm thick) to maximize capacity. He informally reached out to other optical disc engineers at other companies, including a key engineer at Matushita. They met at a Kyoto temple and agreed to work together. They believed the size of their companies would make their format the likely standard.
Meanwhile, Toshiba engineer Hisashi Yamada had led research into discs with .1 mm and .6 mm layers for a year an a half and concluded the new thinner layer was too hard to make.
The Sony-Matsushita camp reached out to Yamada to join their alliance but Toshiba was at the time the chairman of the DVD forum and rejected the overture. Yamada said "Toshiba doesn't like political maneuvering."
Sony and Matsushita were able to attact other companies to their alliance because many of them didn't want to work through the 200-plus member DVD Forum. They also thought the Toshiba format could suffer the same fate as the current DVD format: commoditization by "cheap Chinese copycats."
Blue-Ray was announced in 2/2002. Toshiba and NEC submitted their format to the DVD Forum that summer. The Toshiba/NEC format came up for vote in June and Sept. of 2003 and the Blue-Ray companies in the DVD Forum voted against it.
The Toshiba format didn't get much momentum until Microsoft and Intel got involved. MS started pushing WMV to the DVD Forum at the end of 2002. Since January of this year, MS has joined Toshiba in pitching the format to Hollywood. However, MS is courting Blue-Ray's use of its codec as well.
Intel proved instrumental in getting the DVD Forum to approve the HD DVD format in 11/2003:
"At the meeting, Intel proposed changing the rules to prevent abstentions from being counted as "no" votes, say people familiar with the situation.
At the urging of Intel, the amendment was written up during a coffee break, passed and immediately put into effect. The rule change, along with the surprise support of Blu-ray members Thomson SA of France and Samsung Electronics Co. of South Korea, was enough to get one version of the Toshiba-backed format approved in an 8-6 vote, according to people familiar with the situation."
In addition Toshiba's HD-DVD is getting support from Taiwanese hardware and disc manufacturers, which see the format as easy to make (both the hardware and the discs). They also hope to reduce the royalties they pay, which are as much as 30% of the price of the players.
Hollywood for its part is supposedly noncommittal. Most of the studios haven't committed to either format but are taking pitches and looking to pit one came against the other for their advantage:
"Studios think they have more to gain by fence-sitting while the competing camps woo them with private presentations and promises to pay more of the cost of advertising new movie-disc releases."
The demos haven't "revealed a clear winner." But studios have favorite demo material. Warner Bros. is interested in how the formats render different hues of black in its Matrix movies while MGM likes the car chase scenes from Ronin, because it's fast moving and there are a lot of lighting changes.
Toshiba's Yamada claims the Blue-Ray discs would have to be encased in cartridges because they are so susceptible to "grime." Sony's Ogawa ground dirt into the face of a BR disc and played it to prove that isn't the case.
Sony has faced weak demand for its $4000 BR recorder in Japan. Still Matsushita plans to sell a BR recorder under its Diga line in July. Samsung and LG both promise recorders by the end of this year. Toshiba says it may have a HD-DVD player next year for $1000.
Kiyoshi Nishitani of Sony, who had been an engineer on the Betamax project, says Sony isn't going to compromise, despite the fact that everyone agrees a format war would be bad for everyone.
Many people suspected that what was at stake wasn't necessarily the development of a format with the most technical merit. This article hints at the obstinacy, pettiness and deviousness of the parties involved.
Sony pushed into blue laser after not getting enough of its patents into the current DVD design. Of course it wasn't just pride, as the Japanese companies in general wanted to move up the value chain after seeing DVD hardware commoditized by the Taiwanese.
In late 1998, Sony engineer Hiroshi Ogawa successfully got the blue laser to read a disc. His goal was to make the storage layer just .1 mm thick (DVD is .6 mm thick) to maximize capacity. He informally reached out to other optical disc engineers at other companies, including a key engineer at Matushita. They met at a Kyoto temple and agreed to work together. They believed the size of their companies would make their format the likely standard.
Meanwhile, Toshiba engineer Hisashi Yamada had led research into discs with .1 mm and .6 mm layers for a year an a half and concluded the new thinner layer was too hard to make.
The Sony-Matsushita camp reached out to Yamada to join their alliance but Toshiba was at the time the chairman of the DVD forum and rejected the overture. Yamada said "Toshiba doesn't like political maneuvering."
Sony and Matsushita were able to attact other companies to their alliance because many of them didn't want to work through the 200-plus member DVD Forum. They also thought the Toshiba format could suffer the same fate as the current DVD format: commoditization by "cheap Chinese copycats."
Blue-Ray was announced in 2/2002. Toshiba and NEC submitted their format to the DVD Forum that summer. The Toshiba/NEC format came up for vote in June and Sept. of 2003 and the Blue-Ray companies in the DVD Forum voted against it.
The Toshiba format didn't get much momentum until Microsoft and Intel got involved. MS started pushing WMV to the DVD Forum at the end of 2002. Since January of this year, MS has joined Toshiba in pitching the format to Hollywood. However, MS is courting Blue-Ray's use of its codec as well.
Intel proved instrumental in getting the DVD Forum to approve the HD DVD format in 11/2003:
"At the meeting, Intel proposed changing the rules to prevent abstentions from being counted as "no" votes, say people familiar with the situation.
At the urging of Intel, the amendment was written up during a coffee break, passed and immediately put into effect. The rule change, along with the surprise support of Blu-ray members Thomson SA of France and Samsung Electronics Co. of South Korea, was enough to get one version of the Toshiba-backed format approved in an 8-6 vote, according to people familiar with the situation."
In addition Toshiba's HD-DVD is getting support from Taiwanese hardware and disc manufacturers, which see the format as easy to make (both the hardware and the discs). They also hope to reduce the royalties they pay, which are as much as 30% of the price of the players.
Hollywood for its part is supposedly noncommittal. Most of the studios haven't committed to either format but are taking pitches and looking to pit one came against the other for their advantage:
"Studios think they have more to gain by fence-sitting while the competing camps woo them with private presentations and promises to pay more of the cost of advertising new movie-disc releases."
The demos haven't "revealed a clear winner." But studios have favorite demo material. Warner Bros. is interested in how the formats render different hues of black in its Matrix movies while MGM likes the car chase scenes from Ronin, because it's fast moving and there are a lot of lighting changes.
Toshiba's Yamada claims the Blue-Ray discs would have to be encased in cartridges because they are so susceptible to "grime." Sony's Ogawa ground dirt into the face of a BR disc and played it to prove that isn't the case.
Sony has faced weak demand for its $4000 BR recorder in Japan. Still Matsushita plans to sell a BR recorder under its Diga line in July. Samsung and LG both promise recorders by the end of this year. Toshiba says it may have a HD-DVD player next year for $1000.
Kiyoshi Nishitani of Sony, who had been an engineer on the Betamax project, says Sony isn't going to compromise, despite the fact that everyone agrees a format war would be bad for everyone.
It's very shortsighted to fight against the emergence of a global economy and the economical emergence of underdeveloped countries. "First-world" nations have far too long relied upon the virtual slave trade of outsourcing production work to undeveloped countries for pennies-per-hour wages.
