Anand states that a lot of NV30 info around is inaccurate
- Thread starter McElvis
- Start date
sorry to propigate this but Bjorn that analogy is a fallacy as they are not the same price point. Currently pre-orders for the 9700 on teh same site are priced the same as an 4600. therefore competitiors. The 9700 competitor will change, more than once in its lifetime probably, but as of now it is the 4600.
Randell said:
I simply stated that it's not as simple as "flagship product vs flagship product".
And, "preorder" is not the same as "in stock".
Anyway, what it comes down to is:
Will the price of the Ti4600 affect ATi's pricing of the 9700 ?
(I think that that also was what Democoders initial post about this was about.)
And imo, not unless they lower it to 200$ or so. Because the R9700 is that much better.
In some way during an undefined time window probably the best nvidia card will be the 4600 and ATI will have the 9700 family. In some way they will be competing, specially comparing powered by ATI cards with some Asus cards. Today the Asus V8460 cost at least $307 (see pricewatch).
Doomtrooper said:
#1 The stock was sliding over a long period, it didn't get "dismantled" in a single day
#2 The dismissive comments about the bus were not "lies" and were not stated during the CC and came from a PR person, not the CEO
#3 Nothing NVidia's CEO said could be construed a lie, since it depends on your definitions. Secondly, it is not illegal to state that you are on track for delivering a product, but then encounter problems. Murphy's law.
But I doubt you'll care since in your mind NVidia = Enron/WorldCom/Microsoft/Hitler rolled into one.
Jeez, guys, can't we all just get along? 
Well, maybe not.....
As far as I am concerned, all you fanpeople need to get a life. You are all on equal terms..... zealots! You are all closed minded creatins that need to find something of true value in your lives. I don't mean to go on a rant here , but enough is enough! Think nVidia's marketing is a bunch of BS? Well, so do I....but I will still buy the card that does the best for me, no matter WHO makes it. A lot of what I see here anymore is the same BS from the same people....and you know who you are! It's getting tough to read through the BS in order to find anything worthwile. In fact, both the ATI & nVidia zealots here are responcible for more BS than nVidia's PR department....maybe you guys should get together and apply for jobs there... Then again, I'm sure even they would tire of this crap.
Dave, here's an idea. Maybe you should create another forum titled: ATI vs. nVidia vs. Martrox vs. Bitboys vs. VIA vs. PVR vs. SIS vs. Trident vs. whoever else might make a videocard in the future. That way, you could move any flamestuff &/or BS into that forum, leaving the rest of the forum readable. And, as a bonus, those of us that are looking for some entertainment could pop in there and either get a laugh at the Fanpeople or, even incite them further !
I'm sure that this would help B3D in many ways - you could put a disclaimer on it so manufacturers would not think that B3D was anti anyone and, you could even email them pointing out that this is the B3D equivelent of a blackboard in a mens room !
Of course....I could be wrong <something the fanpeople NEVER are!>
Well, maybe not.....As far as I am concerned, all you fanpeople need to get a life. You are all on equal terms..... zealots! You are all closed minded creatins that need to find something of true value in your lives. I don't mean to go on a rant here
, but enough is enough! Think nVidia's marketing is a bunch of BS? Well, so do I....but I will still buy the card that does the best for me, no matter WHO makes it. A lot of what I see here anymore is the same BS from the same people....and you know who you are! It's getting tough to read through the BS in order to find anything worthwile. In fact, both the ATI & nVidia zealots here are responcible for more BS than nVidia's PR department....maybe you guys should get together and apply for jobs there... Then again, I'm sure even they would tire of this crap.Dave, here's an idea. Maybe you should create another forum titled: ATI vs. nVidia vs. Martrox vs. Bitboys vs. VIA vs. PVR vs. SIS vs. Trident vs. whoever else might make a videocard in the future. That way, you could move any flamestuff &/or BS into that forum, leaving the rest of the forum readable. And, as a bonus, those of us that are looking for some entertainment could pop in there and either get a laugh at the Fanpeople or, even incite them further
!I'm sure that this would help B3D in many ways - you could put a disclaimer on it so manufacturers would not think that B3D was anti anyone
and, you could even email them pointing out that this is the B3D equivelent of a blackboard in a mens room !Of course....I could be wrong
<something the fanpeople NEVER are!>Oh and as a sidenote when some PR dude says something like.. ''Almost everything you have heard about our upcoming product is wrong'' it actually means, ''Ah fudge, you already know everything about it through leaks - drats, drats and double drats.''
People should take lessons in PR speak.
Ref: an ATI PR dude just before launch of the R300 reportedly said those exact words to a dude at a computer convention(was it Computex??) a couple weeks (or so) before the announcement of the R300. This thread was posted at Hardocp's forums along with bits and bobs about the '128bitness' of the R300.
PR = Propaganda - we are just part of that machinery - so lets all continue propagating and multiply these rumours like the plague.
Yea I realise I am late to this topic but I didn't wanna miss out on the fun. Sorry for crashing your party guys
People should take lessons in PR speak.
Ref: an ATI PR dude just before launch of the R300 reportedly said those exact words to a dude at a computer convention(was it Computex??) a couple weeks (or so) before the announcement of the R300. This thread was posted at Hardocp's forums along with bits and bobs about the '128bitness' of the R300.
PR = Propaganda - we are just part of that machinery - so lets all continue propagating and multiply these rumours like the plague.
Yea I realise I am late to this topic but I didn't wanna miss out on the fun. Sorry for crashing your party guys
nooneyouknow
Newcomer
Democoder, I think Doomtrooper was referring to the tape out comment, not the memory bus, as a possible lie. If so, then he is right, ilelgal to do so. If not, then disregard.
Also, even though the stock was on a decline, it took a MAJOR drop the next day, so, in essence, the impact was huge and fast.
Also, even though the stock was on a decline, it took a MAJOR drop the next day, so, in essence, the impact was huge and fast.
TheMightyPuck
Newcomer
although the price drop had nothing (or at the most very little) to do with nv30 and everything to do with a big time earnings miss that they didn't warn about. that said, playing rope a dope is a dangerous PR game because the risks of pissing off the SEC or exposing yourself to a shareholder class action most likely outweigh any competitive advantage you get. (I doubt companies relying on FUD to make business decisions would last very long although....)
The question is official misdirection vs spreading of false rumors. When some guy in an interview says "256-bit bus is overrated" and then the NV30 winds up with a 256-bit bus, they can't be prosecuted by SEC. And I doubt a shareholder lawsuit would hold up.
Moreover, there is nothing illegal about being ambiguous and what NVidia's CEO said in the CC was ambiguous and designed to be so. High level executives and politicians are well aware of how important word choice is. In international relations, for example, a single word mispoken could piss off China or Taiwan, or the the middle east players.
NVidia's CEO wouldn't elaborate. And if he wasn't ambiguous, but merely outright contradictory, we wouldn't be having these "tape out" discussions. Like Clinton's statement "I did not have sexual relations with that woman" it depends on your definitions. What does "tape out" and "wrapping it up" mean when NVidia's CEO says it? Did he misunderstand the question? Or did he intentionally misunderstand it?
Regardless of what was said about the tapeout, NVidia still claims they will make holiday season and that's the real meat of the issue. We will see this Nov/Dec who was right, but it makes almost no sense to continue to argue about what "tape out" means in the absense of information.
One more thing: the attempt to tie PR truthfullness into the Enron/WorldCom fiasco is irrelevent. The SEC is investigating phoney FINANCIAL statements, not VAPORWARE statements. And the SEC isn't going to be prosecuting some corp because the CEO said they'd deliver a product by such and such a date and they missed their deliverable.
Hell, if that was our standard, we'd have to sue every game company in existence for being late delivering yet making pronouncements about shipping. (Goddamn, CounterStrike condition zero was just pushed up again! And when is Team Fortress 2 coming out, it's 4 years late!)
Moreover, there is nothing illegal about being ambiguous and what NVidia's CEO said in the CC was ambiguous and designed to be so. High level executives and politicians are well aware of how important word choice is. In international relations, for example, a single word mispoken could piss off China or Taiwan, or the the middle east players.
NVidia's CEO wouldn't elaborate. And if he wasn't ambiguous, but merely outright contradictory, we wouldn't be having these "tape out" discussions. Like Clinton's statement "I did not have sexual relations with that woman" it depends on your definitions. What does "tape out" and "wrapping it up" mean when NVidia's CEO says it? Did he misunderstand the question? Or did he intentionally misunderstand it?
Regardless of what was said about the tapeout, NVidia still claims they will make holiday season and that's the real meat of the issue. We will see this Nov/Dec who was right, but it makes almost no sense to continue to argue about what "tape out" means in the absense of information.
One more thing: the attempt to tie PR truthfullness into the Enron/WorldCom fiasco is irrelevent. The SEC is investigating phoney FINANCIAL statements, not VAPORWARE statements. And the SEC isn't going to be prosecuting some corp because the CEO said they'd deliver a product by such and such a date and they missed their deliverable.
Hell, if that was our standard, we'd have to sue every game company in existence for being late delivering yet making pronouncements about shipping. (Goddamn, CounterStrike condition zero was just pushed up again! And when is Team Fortress 2 coming out, it's 4 years late!)
Doomtrooper said:
I have to agree that your logic is somewhat flawed. Basically what you're saying is when Nvidia charges $399 they are price gouging, but when ATi charges the same amount they aren't. You qualify that by the fact that the R300 is more advanced so you're getting more for your money. Unfortunately that argument doesn't fly because back when the GF4 Ti4600 was released it was "more advanced" and they still charged $399 not $499 or anything (more) ridiculous. If the R9700 had been released at $299 you might have a case to make.
Let's call a spade a spade, $399 cards are ridiculously overpriced. The main reason they are out there are for fanboys and hardcore tech junkies who just can't bear to be behind the cutting edge (and they pay for their obsession). I don't believe it costs Nvidia anywhere near $400 to make their GF4 chip, and I also don't believe it costs ATi near $400 to make the R9700. You can give me sad stories about the expensive R&D costs and low yields, etc, I just don't buy it. I think both companies are ripping us off and making a very generous profit on these cards.
The bottomline is as much as I'd like to have a R9700, I'm never going to be able to justify forking over the ridiculous amount of cash for it (knowing full-well in 6 months it will be old news and available for half price). That's not because I can't "afford it", but just because I think it's a waste of money. Now you may disagree, and nothing is stopping you from buying the card, but I have a feeling that the majority of people are like me and won't spend more than $250. Actually more people won't spend over $100, but we're talking gamers/tech junkies here not average joes.
I think Doom is talking about when GF4 was released it had only 10% more transistors than GF3 but was much more expensive.
The R300 has an expensive packaging, more complex PCB, 70% more transistors (edited: than GF4), a lot of new Intelectual Property and R&D (really new technology), then it is worth the price.
But I agree that few people will buy the R300 and the NV30. Probably most people will wait the mainstream versions.
The R300 has an expensive packaging, more complex PCB, 70% more transistors (edited: than GF4), a lot of new Intelectual Property and R&D (really new technology), then it is worth the price.
But I agree that few people will buy the R300 and the NV30. Probably most people will wait the mainstream versions.
OK, so the 9700 Pro is coming 9/19 (possibly late b/c of 9/11, possibly early). But ATi will still be shipping a 9700, no? Maybe that's what they'll start shipping on ~8/19. It would be more than a little interesting if both the 9700 and NV28 ship within a week of each other.
Speaking of which, is the NV28 flying under our radar, or is its extra 20 million transistors nothing to get excited over?
P.S. - "Phoney financial statments" = "vaporware" to me.
Speaking of which, is the NV28 flying under our radar, or is its extra 20 million transistors nothing to get excited over?
P.S. - "Phoney financial statments" = "vaporware" to me.