American Fined in Brazil for Gesture

[Legion]

Ok, we'll I won't get in your discussion (meaning you and Aivansama). Just tell who's the winner

I'd love for you to do that and then provide an substantive explanation as to how you came to the conclusion. I'll be waiting.

 

[Legion]

Ok, we'll I won't get in your discussion (meaning you and Aivansama). Just tell who's the winner

I am afraid I am going to lose. Knowing that beforehand helps dull the pain...

Out of curiosity how could you lose? have you infact been arguing anything in particular?

 

[Aivansama]

Ok, we'll I won't get in your discussion (meaning you and Aivansama). Just tell who's the winner

I am afraid I am going to lose. Knowing that beforehand helps dull the pain...

Out of curiosity how could you lose? have you infact been arguing anything in particular?

I had typed an answer, but then decided not to post it. Suffice to say that I have been called an idiot. Hardly a victory to anyone...

 

[ByteMe]

Fokk those brazilians. You know dam well it only applies to americans. I think I am going to run over the next brazilian I see.

 

[Legion]

I had typed an answer, but then decided not to post it. Suffice to say that I have been called an idiot. Hardly a victory to anyone...

my condolences. I wonder if Vince feels similarly about you calling him a troll.

 

[Legion]

Fokk those brazilians. You know dam well it only applies to americans. I think I am going to run over the next brazilian I see.

White Americans in particular no doubt.

This really isn't a matter of having equal standards. Its a matter of enforcing grudges.

 

[Aivansama]

I had typed an answer, but then decided not to post it. Suffice to say that I have been called an idiot. Hardly a victory to anyone...

my condolences. I wonder if Vince feels similarly about you calling him a troll.

I could have assumed he was serious, in which case he was calling me of having
"loss of moral, values, family structure, belief, sincerity and has gone too far into excesses", or I could assume he was trolling, in which case he really didn't insult me. I gave him the benefit of doubt.

Now, this is exactly why I didn't type my answer the first time. Forget it, I'll stick to 3d section. Here goes:

I have tried to avoid using specific names when talking about societies, knowing fully well that any transatlantic difference of opinion is certain to attract heated patriotism.

I tried to ignore obvious flamebaits (white american citizens wronged by brazilian (non-white, no less) bozos), instead focusing on the humorous aspects ie. the poor sod knew he'd get fined for 10000$, and he still gave them the finger. Good for him.
What possible point was served by telling the journalists he wasn't a monkey? Isn't that obvious? I am thus insulting people with my manners.

Now I am a leftist anti-american pinko because I tried to avoid entering direct flamewars with flamebaits laid by people holding certain political beliefs and the need to argue them in public. I tried to avoid arguing, trying to discuss on facts. Or humor. But that seems to be insulting, se perhaps I should just have called people idiots.

This is why I'll lose: I hoped there could be discussion that wouldn't turn into pissing contest. There can't, and I am an idiot. On that we'll agree.

Someone should clean up rest of the splatters, by the way. Good start by Neeyik, but then the he ran out of locks.
edit: beacause -> because

 

[Legion]

I tried to ignore obvious flamebaits (white american citizens wronged by brazilian (non-white, no less) bozos), instead focusing on the humorous aspects ie. the poor sod knew he'd get fined for 10000$, and he still gave them the finger. Good for him.
What possible point was served by telling the journalists he wasn't a monkey? Isn't that obvious? I am thus insulting people with my manners.

I stated what i felt he was implying. I do not think he was implying as an american citizen he is somehow superior to anyone. I just feel he was some how bothered by the severity of the punishment and was reflecting on his treatment.

Now I am a leftist anti-american pinko because I tried to avoid entering direct flamewars with flamebaits laid by people holding certain political beliefs and the need to argue them in public.

Who called you a "leftist anti-american pinko" for not engaging in flame wars? What flamebait is this to which you refer? I felt it was possible you have an anti american slant but i haven't stated this. I have sought some clarification. Who considers you a leftist? Are you infact a leftist? Does that matter to any degree with what has been discussed?

I tried to avoid arguing, trying to discuss on facts. Or humor. But that seems to be insulting, se perhaps I should just have called people idiots.

Perhaps some felt your humor was insulting?

This is why I'll lose: I hoped there could be discussion that wouldn't turn into pissing contest. There can't, and I am an idiot. On that we'll agree.

now where is that violin music file i had around...

I don't think our discussion started as anything productive.

Someone should clean up rest of the splatters, by the way. Good start by Neeyik, but then the he ran out of locks.
edit: beacause -> because

I doubt his capacity in many respects not because he is inept but because he faces other's inconsistancies...

 

[Xmas]

And a little more offensive than showing a boob I'd say...

Really?

Yes, I certainly think so.

What is the fine in other countries for showing that gesture?

...most likely nothing unless of course you mean insulting an officer of the law.

At least in German law it makes no difference at all whether you're insulting an officer of the law or any other person. Despite the popular belief that it does.
The sentence for insults can be a fine or up to one year in jail. Though I never heard of anyone put into jail for an insult. But of fines >1000 EUR.

 

[Legion]

And a little more offensive than showing a boob I'd say...

Really?

Yes, I certainly think so.

I see matters differently. Being engaged i would certainly be offended if a woman did such to elicit desire from me.

At least in German law it makes no difference at all whether you're insulting an officer of the law or any other person. Despite the popular belief that it does.

Interesting. What exactly is the nature of the punishments and how do the offenses compare to US libel and Slander?

The sentence for insults can be a fine or up to one year in jail. Though I never heard of anyone put into jail for an insult. But of fines >1000 EUR.

1000 EUR is certainly more understandable than 17200 USD i'd say accompanied by a period of inprisonment.

 

[THe_KELRaTH]

Maybe this would be a good time to discuss bringing back hanging... something on the lines of 3rd finger offense and yer out. France could bring in the Finger Guillotine while the Sicilians could perform the cement finger.

 

[ByteMe]

Maybe this would be a good time to discuss bringing back hanging... something on the lines of 3rd finger offense and yer out. France could bring in the Finger Guillotine while the Sicilians could perform the cement finger.

Best idea I've heard in a month.

 

[pascal]

The american gave the finger to a Federal Policy Officer while working. The fine is more than justified and will be given to charity. The majority of brazilians aprove the reciprocity (>95%). I personally aprove and the procedure was automated a few days ago. The procedure now take only one (1) minute.

I guess if I do the same obscenity for a FBI agent I will be in jail.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/01/12/world/main592699.shtml

http://www.google.com.br/search?q=c...e+Robin+Hersh+delta&hl=pt-BR&ie=UTF-8

 

[Barnabas]

On a side note: a friend who visited NZ 2 years ago told me that when they landed everyone had to leave the plane, even those who just wanted to continue the flight to another country, and then they were sorted according to nations who demanded transit visas from NZ and those who did not. The former than had to wait in line and get a transit visa from some exceptionally highly motivated officials while the latter could just enter the airport after a brief check of their passports. This type of revenge doesn't seem to be uncommon.

 

[Florin]

The american gave the finger to a Federal Policy Officer while working. The fine is more than justified

Have you fellows heard of the concept of making a punishment fit the crime?

In most civilised countries insulting an officer on duty will get you fined something in the order of 50-75$. 12.000+ dollar is not 'more than justified', it is highway robbery :?

 

[pascal]

The american gave the finger to a Federal Policy Officer while working. The fine is more than justified

Have you fellows heard of the concept of making a punishment fit the crime?

In most civilised countries insulting an officer on duty will get you fined something in the order of 50-75$. 12.000+ dollar is not 'more than justified', it is highway robbery :?

???

IIRC in UK it is:

SECTION 4A INTENTIONAL HARASSMENT,ALARM OR DISTRESS (section 4A): A person is guilty of this offence if, ‘with intent to cause a person harassment, alarm or distress, she/he: (i) uses threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour, or disorderly behaviour or (ii) displays any writing, sign or other visible representation which is threatening, abusive or insulting, thereby causing that or another person harassment, alarm or distress’.This offence differs from the section 5 offence in that it (a) requires an intention to cause a particular person harassment, alarm or distress and (b) actually causes harassment alarm or distress to that person or to another person. It is a defence to show that the conduct was reasonable. The maximum penalty is also more severe than for the section 5 offence, six months imprisonment or a fine not exceeding £5,000. It can only be tried in a magistrates court.

Barnabas
It is not revenge but only diplomatic reciprocity. The US ask brazilians to fly 2000 km to the US Embassy, stay at a hotel and spend at least one entire day in a outdoor qeue waiting to be interviewed, pay $100 for the embassy services and have a privacy invasion giving all details about our lives, income, work, etc.. to try to get a US VISA. Them when you fly to US you have a fingerprint and photo procedure, more interviews.

edited: Nowadays Brazilians even need a transit-visa for the US, for example when they travel to Japan via LAX.

I guess americans dont know how their diplomacy works.

Just as example the UK dont ask VISA from us and we do the same (reciprocity). I just fly to London with my passport and I can stay for some months there and visit other europeans countries

 

[Florin]

???

IIRC in UK it is:

Your quote is 1) from a single country 2) covers all kinds of harassment possible, including far more heinous insults than a mischievous flick of the finger and 3) defines a maximum fine which is still far below the ones issued in your country.

I stand by what I said - the fines are outrageous. Hopefully this abuse will be reflected in fewer tourist visits.

 

[pascal]

Not that far, it is around US$ 8,750.00
If it means less visits from uneducated people like the one above then it will be great.

If you want them find the values from other countries.

But dont try to give the finger to some FBI agent on duty

 

[DemoCoder]

The idea that being photographed or fingerprinted is inhumane is absurd. First of all, if this is the case, then PASSPORTS ARE INHUMANE, since they require photos. So are drivers licenses and other forms of identification.

Moreover, many nations and states already fingerprint their citizens for IDs. Anyone getting a license in California has to give a thumb print. That judge that compared getting photographed to Jews getting tatooed and required to wear a star is an idiot.

The US has the right to control it's airspace and borders, period. This is a well recognized right. The US is under significant terrorist threat from abroad, Brazil is not. The Brazilian reciprocal response is just childish. It's their right to do it, but the reason given for the imposition is illogical. The US has good and legitimate reasons for imposing new security controls on tourists. Does Brazil face any significant security threat from US tourists? No.

I frankly don't care if I am questioned, searched, fingerprinted, or photographed at the airport. Air travel is not a right. Entry into a foreign country is not a right. They are privileges. At best, I would simply hope the process is "random" or "fair" in that everyone has the possibility (not neccessarily same probability) of being "caught" by the security process.

 

[frownupsidedown]

If you feel that you're now safer as a direct result of these policies, then wouldn't the sacrifies of personal freedom and pride be worth it? Alternatively it's only worthwhile if international travellers pay the sacrifices to ensure the saftey of Americans.

Put it another way, if the two Americans were not offended with what is basically a reflection of American policy why do they feel the need to flip the finger? To jest? :?