Multiple attacks kill atleast 80 in Mumbai

[slider]

You underestimate those bastards, and their mom, ISI.

Maybe. But I'm wary of partisan-ship on either side. As I always love quoting Parekh... we're all prisoners of our subjectivity. Clever dude.

Cheers.

 

[Freak'n Big Panda]

I thought this article on tom dispatch was very well done:

http://www.tomdispatch.com/post/175013/arundhati_roy_the_monster_in_the_mirror

It really helps to put the attacks into perspective for those that do not know much about Indian history/politics.

 

[Mintmaster]

Wow, Panda, posting that excellent article almost makes up for your dumbass comment earlier in the thread. There are some absolutely striking analogies with America's War on Terror along with great arguments about how it has been the worst thing for solving the problem. I shudder to think what would happen if India repeats the same mistake.

Gubbi, I was pretty convinced by your explanation before, and the author here makes it even more clear.

 

[Deepak]

No, America's war on terror is few years old. India's been bearing the brunt of Pakistan sponsered terror since decades. And what mistake are you talking about? Military strikes?

 

[Mintmaster]

No, I mean a full out invasion to replace the goverment when such a move really doesn't solve anything and in fact will just fuel the flames of terrorism and make it worse.

Gubbi and Arundhati Roy are right. These people simply want to goad the Indian government into doing something stupid that will provoke even a fraction of the 150M Muslims in India to becoming radicals. OBL did the same to the US, and Bush along with all the supporters of the Iraq invasion were dumb enough to fall for it. However, India is in a much more precarious position.

 

[Tahir2]

Wrong forum really but the attackers objective would be that the war on terror (non-state sponsored rogue attacks and retalliations) spill over into a war on nations. Pakistan and India involved in a conventional war could be a potentially a world war catalyst as the two nations are nuclear.

Overthrowing the govt in Pak would not be an objective of the US or India really, as this government is very much allied with the US.. what would it be replaced with?

Still, very sad and unusual attacks - killing of innocent people is always a tragedy no matter where they are from.

Edit: "unusual" in the mode of the attacks.

 

[SPM]

No, I mean a full out invasion to replace the goverment when such a move really doesn't solve anything and in fact will just fuel the flames of terrorism and make it worse.

Gubbi and Arundhati Roy are right. These people simply want to goad the Indian government into doing something stupid that will provoke even a fraction of the 150M Muslims in India to becoming radicals. OBL did the same to the US, and Bush along with all the supporters of the Iraq invasion were dumb enough to fall for it. However, India is in a much more precarious position.

I doubt if the Pakistani government (the recently elected civillian government that is) was involved in any way. However in the case of Pakistan, the fact that the civilian government wasn't involved deesn't mean that the Pakistani military or secret services wasn't involved. The fact that the elected Pakistani civilian government was building peaceful ties with the Indian government recently has alarmed the Pakistani military and secret services, and breaking these ties is certainly a strong motivation for the attacks. The fact that maritime warfare training was provided to the attackers by somebody certainly is a strong indication that they were not simply Afgan or Kashmiri terrorist groups acting on their own.

 

[Deepak]

No, I mean a full out invasion to replace the goverment when such a move really doesn't solve anything and in fact will just fuel the flames of terrorism and make it worse.

Gubbi and Arundhati Roy are right. These people simply want to goad the Indian government into doing something stupid that will provoke even a fraction of the 150M Muslims in India to becoming radicals. OBL did the same to the US, and Bush along with all the supporters of the Iraq invasion were dumb enough to fall for it. However, India is in a much more precarious position.

Are you saying taking military action against Pakistan'll provoke Indian Muslims, if yes then you are wrong! And the military action will not be to replace govt in Pakistan, it'll only be a warning to those in power there to mend there ways...or we escalate things further. But yes before any military action there are a host of non-military options available to India which can put pressure on them. BUT the Mumbai attack must not go unchallanged....there has to be a REPLY.

 

[Freak'n Big Panda]

BUT the Mumbai attack must not go unchallanged....there has to be a REPLY.

It's this sort of thinking that really fucked the US. There only has to be a reply if it's the rational thing to do of course. And a military response will not do anything at all except further the aims for the terrorists, Iraq and Afganistan should be evidence enough for that.

Also there is no credible evidence to suggest any government elements in Pakistan had anything to do with these attacks so to act under that assumption is a grave mistake IMO.

 

[rpg.314]

Also there is no credible evidence to suggest any government elements in Pakistan had anything to do with these attacks so to act under that assumption is a grave mistake IMO.

Have you been living in a cave since your birth, or are just plain ignorant?

I am sorry, but this a retarded response, Bush Screwed up in Iraq, ignored Afghanistan, doesn't mean that it was wrong. He screwed it up, no doubt, but he did the right thing.

 

[Freak'n Big Panda]

Right, we'll just have to agree to disagree on that one.

EDIT: Nothing I said in my post was factually incorrect. There is no credible evidence that suggests that the Pakistani government (or the army, or ISI) is involved. And I do firmly believe that bush did the wrong thing. He just doesn't understand the reality on the ground.

 

[rpg.314]

EDIT: Nothing I said in my post was factually incorrect. There is no credible evidence that suggests that the Pakistani government (or the army, or ISI) is involved. And I do firmly believe that bush did the wrong thing. He just doesn't understand the reality on the ground.

And there is no credible evidence that Al-Qaida engineered 9/11.

 

[Freak'n Big Panda]

No there isn't actually. Lol. It's pretty hard to say AQ engineered the 9-11 attacks when it's impossible to even define AQ properly. I'm wondering who the ignorant one is here.

 

[Mintmaster]

Are you saying taking military action against Pakistan'll provoke Indian Muslims, if yes then you are wrong!

Why is that? I'm not talking about provoking all of them, or even an appreciable fraction. Even if one in a million see a needless attack on Pakistan as enough of a reason to move to radicalism, it will have devastating consequences.

But yes before any military action there are a host of non-military options available to India which can put pressure on them. BUT the Mumbai attack must not go unchallanged....there has to be a REPLY.

If by "reply" you are indeed referring to non-military action, then that of course goes without saying.

 

[Mintmaster]

I am sorry, but this a retarded response, Bush Screwed up in Iraq, ignored Afghanistan, doesn't mean that it was wrong. He screwed it up, no doubt, but he did the right thing.

Afghanistan's invasion made sense, because the Taliban was undoubtedly based there and getting funding from the populace in one way or the other.

Iraq, OTOH, was definately not the right thing. Even if you think that the invasion will save lives overall (which is a bullshit assumption), it pales in comparison to what that money could have done elsewhere by orders of magnitude.

Even more of a joke is that after WMDs weren't found, the majority of war supporters' justification was that it moved the war on terror off US soil. I've never before seen such a huge portion of the US so directly show how stupid and inhumane they are.

 

[rpg.314]

Afghanistan's invasion made sense, because the Taliban was undoubtedly based there and getting funding from the populace in one way or the other.

Iraq, OTOH, was definately not the right thing. Even if you think that the invasion will save lives overall (which is a bullshit assumption), it pales in comparison to what that money could have done elsewhere by orders of magnitude.

My thoughts exactly, I should have phrased my post as clearly as yours.

 

[Freak'n Big Panda]

Afghanistan's invasion made sense, because the Taliban was undoubtedly based there and getting funding from the populace in one way or the other.

I'll recap the events leading up to the invasion of Afghanistan. 9/11 happened, OBL was blamed. OBL was in Afghanistan. the US requested that OBL be handed over. The Taliban requested that the US provide evidence that OBL organized the 9/11 attacks, the US could not provide any and decided to invade regardless.

Originally eliminating the Taliban was not the promoted rational for invasion but this changed as it became obvious that OBL would not be found. This shifting is similar to what we saw in Iraq with the WMDs. My point is that the US couldn't care less about the Taliban or what they do to the population of Afghanistan, that was never the primary motive for the invasion.

 

[Freak'n Big Panda]

Just another note. Why would you think it is OK to invade afganistan to remove the Taliban but not OK to invade Iraq to remove Saddam? You could easily agrue that Saddam did much more damage than the Taliban.

 

[Deepak]

Okay, so what non-military options do you guys can think of?

1. Put pressure (how?) on IMF to stop loans?
2. Snap all kinds of links (diplomatic, trade, cultural, sports, travel etc)?
3. Put pressue on countries to stop high tech weapons sales to Pakistan?

More?

 

[Freak'n Big Panda]

well the Kashmir situation has to be defused. I see that as the primary cause of terrorism in India. So somebody would have to look at the problems there and make a compromise so all the affected parties can feel that the issue is resolved.