A comparison of PS3 and 360 as media players

[bkilian]

Interesting, always cool to hear backstory tales. Shame those minutes aren't public Yeah it really shows that bluray's interactivity stack was added more in haste because it's quite appaling in it's functionality. But as slow and crude as blurays menus, etc, are i think that's only one of the ways they are shooting themselves in the head ultimately. Forced trailers, etc just kill the experience.

Both formats originally had no concept of unskippable sequences. Pressure from the studios caused revisions to the specs. I still have the little piece of paper that got sent out (That we were supposed to paste in) adding unskippable titles to my HD DVD spec.
Even without unskippables, Universal and Paramount engineered their own by catching the remote commands and ignoring them during their "unskippable" sections.

BD-J was added in return for Disney joining the BDA. BD+ was added to keep Fox happy. Unskippables was pretty much all the studios. Basically everything people hate about BD is a result of studios mucking with what was originally a very elegant format.

 

[joker454]

Yeah I've had software that can do that for a while for DVD, but what if all of these are necessary for the same movie?

Then keep them all, nothing stops you from doing that. You can keep every audio track and every subtitle on a given movie if you want.

Both formats originally had no concept of unskippable sequences. Pressure from the studios caused revisions to the specs. I still have the little piece of paper that got sent out (That we were supposed to paste in) adding unskippable titles to my HD DVD spec.
Even without unskippables, Universal and Paramount engineered their own by catching the remote commands and ignoring them during their "unskippable" sections.

BD-J was added in return for Disney joining the BDA. BD+ was added to keep Fox happy. Unskippables was pretty much all the studios. Basically everything people hate about BD is a result of studios mucking with what was originally a very elegant format.

That is a shame, because bd-j and bd+ I suspect are two of the big offenders on movie load time. I just can't believe they think unskippables are agood idea, just crazy. I guess it figures that the studios would muck it all up...but then again they steered me to anydvd so I guess really I'm greateful to them

 

[joker454]

Tron asks if i want to resume from where i left off

So is resume where you last were done on a per disc basis or do all discs do it? Just asking cuz all my bluray rips resume where they last were

 

[patsu]

Both formats originally had no concept of unskippable sequences. Pressure from the studios caused revisions to the specs. I still have the little piece of paper that got sent out (That we were supposed to paste in) adding unskippable titles to my HD DVD spec.
Even without unskippables, Universal and Paramount engineered their own by catching the remote commands and ignoring them during their "unskippable" sections.

BD-J was added in return for Disney joining the BDA. BD+ was added to keep Fox happy. Unskippables was pretty much all the studios. Basically everything people hate about BD is a result of studios mucking with what was originally a very elegant format.

... and Mandatory Managed Copy was added to keep the PC makers happy. Everyone in the Blu-ray party chipped in to make what is BR today. Like BD-Live (Profile 2), 3D Blu-ray (Profile 5) and BDXL were added later. It looks like they want to add 4K as an BD extension too.

That is a shame, because bd-j and bd+ I suspect are two of the big offenders on movie load time. I just can't believe they think unskippables are agood idea, just crazy. I guess it figures that the studios would muck it all up...but then again they steered me to anydvd so I guess really I'm greateful to them

In the early days, the implementation of the players' JVM were not optimized. That's why loading took time. These days, movie loading should be relatively quick.

So is resume where you last were done on a per disc basis or do all discs do it? Just asking cuz all my bluray rips resume where they last were

I believe BR discs that do not support Java Bookmark will rely on the player's resume feature. However it is also possible for a Blu-ray movie to have the resume problem even if it does not use Java. I think discs that are authored with Java Bookmark feature will require the users to quit using the BD-J mechanism (in order to remember the point where you left off).

It seems that the title authors have some control over this, but none of them took the issue seriously.



BD-J is a subset of the GEM standard. At some point, the connected Blu-ray players and the nextgen interactive cable settop boxes such as the Tru2way devices were (are ?) supposed to work hand-in-hand. They are all based on Java. I believe their work went as far back as 1996 or earlier.

 

[patsu]

A nice critical Blu-Ray article, covers some interesting aspects about Cinevia protection and how Blu-Ray is slowly killing itself.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/5693/...top-worrying-and-love-blurays-selfdestruction

That Cinavia move is not targeted at Blu-ray backups per se. It's a blanket move to force consumers to pay for both physical playback _and_ digital playback. If we can make full backup of Blu-ray freely, they will stand to lose more digital revenue, not necessarily only BR $$$.

Really nice piece. No surprise the conclusion was that....shocker....DRM hurts the actual consumers and not the pirates.

Depends. Lousy DRM tech and overly strict DRM policies will turn people off. But a good DRM application can enable business.

While I certainly dont like the nagging before the movie, its now as bad as you make it out to be. I also quite like some of the PIP features which eg. show the correct "behind the scenes" during the movie, something the rips lack.
Also I can just resume my movie where I stopped, not going through menus and warnings (happens a few times since I cant remember the correct buttons on my DS3 controller).

But then I wont ever in a million years buy a Disney movie just because of the reasons you mentioned, those are really offensive with the crap you have to go through - and that were DVDs I bought years ago.

So in short, BD by design aint retarded, Disney and other publishers are.

I like the trailers at the beginning of Blu-ray. I don't track movie releases anymore. I rely partially on these trailers to decide what to rent next. I could skip these trailers one by one if I have already seen the movie.

These marketing materials are not evil. It's the people behind them who failed to package the experience properly. BD-J is a waste in their hands.

 

[patsu]

While we are at it, this bit of news might be relevant.

BitTorrent Pirates Go Nuts After TV Release Groups Dump Xvid
http://torrentfreak.com/bittorrent-pirates-go-nuts-after-tv-release-groups-dump-xvid-120303/

Some Internet piracy groups decided to implement some new regulations and standards last week. Instead of releasing TV shows in the Xvid/avi format, groups responsible for putting major TV shows online switched to MP4/x264. Outraged by the lack of democracy, some BitTorrent users are directing their anger at bewildered torrent sites and even threatening to boycott releases. For those who understand, the whole thing is pretty amusing.

In essence, pirates may be "standardizing" their goods in the original Blu-ray MP4/x264 containers. Should be interesting to see Cinavia vs angry mob.


EDIT:
Besides pirates, it looks like H.264 also won the web codec skirmish...

Mozilla execs capitulate in H.264 Web-video war
http://news.cnet.com/8301-30685_3-57397031-264/mozilla-execs-capitulate-in-h.264-web-video-war/

High-ranking Mozilla staff, believing they've lost a fight to keep patent-encumbered technology off the Web, have concluded it's time to change course and support H.264 video technology.

 

[rpg.314]

Depends. Lousy DRM tech and overly strict DRM policies will turn people off. But a good DRM application can enable business.

I'd like to know if anybody has ever made a good DRM application or if DRM has ever helped a business.

 

[bkilian]

... and Mandatory Managed Copy was added to keep the PC makers happy. Everyone in the Blu-ray party chipped in to make what is BR today. Like BD-Live (Profile 2), 3D Blu-ray (Profile 5) and BDXL were added later. It looks like they want to add 4K as an BD extension too.

BD1.1(Picture in Picture) and BD2.0 were added directly to compete with HD DVD, which launched with all those features. MMC was definitely a nod to the device manufacturers (Apple, Samsung, HP)

In the early days, the implementation of the players' JVM were not optimized. That's why loading took time. These days, movie loading should be relatively quick.

I don't know about you, but to me 3-5 minutes is not "relatively quick" (The average of the last 3 blu-rays I have put in my reasonably new samsung player) And I'm not talking previews time, I'm talking time to load the disc.

 

[-tkf-]

That Cinavia move is not targeted at Blu-ray backups per se. It's a blanket move to force consumers to pay for both physical playback _and_ digital playback. If we can make full backup of Blu-ray freely, they will stand to lose more digital revenue, not necessarily only BR $$$.

In the long run it does look like it will be aimed at spoiling the "fun" for Blu-Ray rips, since:

An update to the AACS licensing agreement indicated that all players sent to the BDA (Blu-ray Disc Association) for licensing after February 1st, 2012 should have the Cinavia detection routine embedded in the firmware.

Cinavia is particularly worrisome for DMAs (Digital Media Adapters) that have also licensed Blu-ray capabilities

Which basicly means that at some point users will have to pick a player that either plays Blu-Rays or copies of a Blu-Ray. At least until the chipsets that these players are based on just implements Cinavia as per default making it impossible to buy any hardware players, leaving PC´s as the last stand...

I wonder if it´s possible to make it a part of the HDMI standard, then we will really have a killer DRM.

The wiki on Cinavia claims DTS on the PS3 is not affected, weird?

 

[-tkf-]

I don't know about you, but to me 3-5 minutes is not "relatively quick" (The average of the last 3 blu-rays I have put in my reasonably new samsung player) And I'm not talking previews time, I'm talking time to load the disc.

Remind me never to buy a standalone Blu-Ray player... ohh wait you just did

 

[Gradthrawn]

Hmm that makes me wonder, even though all my movies are bought and sitting on a bookshelf right behind me, I do make some mobile encodes from them to enjoy on the go for no extra charge. I think hollywood wants me to be paying for that, so makes me wonder is what I'm doing even legal? Or if I have guests in my house it's entirely possible they are watching the same bluray rip as me but in different rooms at the same time, is that legal? Who knows I guess.

You're in the US? What qualifies as "Fair Use" here is rather ambiguous to me now, thanks to laws/regulations that restrict circumventing the DRM of protected content. Is it prohibited to do so in any circumstance or just circumstances that are for profit? Does it apply to everyone included consumers or just companies in regards to the development of such methods to circumvent DRM? I haven't dug into deep enough to actually look at verbiage. Not that I let that stop me from ripping my BDs/DVDs.

you mean after they had to move to Antigua because of legal troubles?

Is that so? I haven't followed their legal battles. I don't need to go out and grab a few more copies right now while I still can, do I?

EDIT

A cursory look at the DMCA would seem to indicate that of the exemptions I saw noted, none of them would account for Fair Use. So, it would seem the mere act of circumventing the DRM of Copyrighted work is illegal (outside of a few special case exceptions), even if its to make an archival back up copy.

 

[Npl]

Is that so? I haven't followed their legal battles. I don't need to go out and grab a few more copies right now while I still can, do I?

No, those troubles where when they sold CloneCD and called themself Elaborate Bytes.. a long time ago (~10 years).
Then Slysoft was founded in Antigua because of the lax copyright law there, and it swallowed up elby and sold CloneCD as first action, AnyDVD came somewhat later.

 

[joker454]

In the long run it does look like it will be aimed at spoiling the "fun" for Blu-Ray rips, since:

Well if they do then I'll stop buying blurays and stick with Directv. Directv has had whole house networked dvr's for a while now and I store movies on the dvr's that aren't available on bluray yet. When the bluray comes out I rip that and delete the movie from whatever dvr in the house it's recorded on. Directv dvr's are expandable to 2tb hdd's, so if bluray got stupid and didn't let me make rips I'd just avoid them completetly, add 2tb hdd's to all the dvr's in the house and make those the new hd movie players by recording them there in hd off the myriad of hd movie channels available and just mark them as keep until i delete. Simple, problem solved. There is simply no way I'm actually going to watch a bluray disc, sorry but I just find that experienc appaling, so they can either have my money like they do now, or get none of it. It's their call, no skin off my nose.

Remind me never to buy a standalone Blu-Ray player... ohh wait you just did

Makes you feel really bad for all those people that watch blurays on standlone players doesn't it? The PS3 was better when I had last used it, but it was still a painful process to watch a bluray disc, to me anyways. My wife and I just couldn't handle it especially in this all digital age, it's just too much of a throwback to sit there waiting for the disc to load.

A cursory look at the DMCA would seem to indicate that of the exemptions I saw noted, none of them would account for Fair Use. So, it would seem the mere act of circumventing the DRM of Copyrighted work is illegal (outside of a few special case exceptions), even if its to make an archival back up copy.

Interesting but I'd be happy to take that to court, that would be an easy victory since I've bought all my movies. So I'll keep on ripping as long as bluray allows it, then revert to DirectTV once then stop allowing it.

 

[-tkf-]

Makes you feel really bad for all those people that watch blurays on standlone players doesn't it? The PS3 was better when I had last used it, but it was still a painful process to watch a bluray disc, to me anyways. My wife and I just couldn't handle it especially in this all digital age, it's just too much of a throwback to sit there waiting for the disc to load.

Nothing beats 1 sec startup time and instant playback, i find your personal solution worth my envy

I use the WDTV solution for DVR playback, it´s pretty much nothing but stuff for the kids and the odd recording for the wife. Works fine with my Nas.

I actually thought that stand alone players was getting into shape. Of course much of that information did come from people that didn´t consider the PS3 to still be a top player, i guess they were pretty much wrong, or had an agenda.

 

[bkilian]

Nothing beats 1 sec startup time and instant playback, i find your personal solution worth my envy

I use the WDTV solution for DVR playback, it´s pretty much nothing but stuff for the kids and the odd recording for the wife. Works fine with my Nas.

I actually thought that stand alone players was getting into shape. Of course much of that information did come from people that didn´t consider the PS3 to still be a top player, i guess they were pretty much wrong, or had an agenda.

As far as I'm aware, the PS3 is still the best BD player out there, at least in terms of speed.

 

[Arwin]

As far as I'm aware, the PS3 is still the best BD player out there, at least in terms of speed.

No there are much faster standalones ... but it has held up surprisingly well.

http://reviews.cnet.com/blu-ray-players/sony-bdp-s570/4505-9991_7-33971082-2.html?tag=rvwBody

 

[joker454]

No there are much faster standalones ... but it has held up surprisingly well.

http://reviews.cnet.com/blu-ray-players/sony-bdp-s570/4505-9991_7-33971082-2.html?tag=rvwBody

So am I reading that link correctly, where "The fastest bluray player they ever tested" takes 15 seconds just to turn on, and another minute to get to the movie?

 

[Brad Grenz]

I think they're showing Mission Impossible 3 takes 15 seconds to play if the player is already on, a fraction of a second more if it's off and you hit the play button, and ~25 seconds if it's on and you wait for it to boot before hitting play. Pirates of the Caribbean takes 24 seconds to load to menus, and a minute to load and then get past any unskippable screens.

 

[-tkf-]

It´s fast:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbV8vf7nuMA

Not mind numbing faster than a PS3, but i guess given the experience people around here have it would be a magnitude of a difference. Tried POTC here (EU version) 1 min 45 secs, and i am mostly waiting for anything but the actual movie to load..

 

[Shifty Geezer]

So am I reading that link correctly, where "The fastest bluray player they ever tested" takes 15 seconds just to turn on, and another minute to get to the movie?

On the one hand, I see what you're saying. But on the other...doesn't anyone else feel kinda worried that people are finding a 15 second wait unbearable? Personally I have no problem wating a half a minute to turn on a device and get it playing, but it seems as the world at large is becoming increasingly less patient, and the consequences of that can't be good. A little perspective suggests 15 seconds to do nothing, think nothing, and just be, or to think about something else, isn't a bad thing by any stretch.

I guess that's pretty OT though.

As for pre-film rubbish on BRDs, the last BRD I played in my PS3 allowed my to skip the federal warning with a R1 press, and went straight into the movie. Pre-movie rubbish is clearly an issue with the film companies and not BRD itself. It's been that way since DVD, and I guess that's a mojor plus for direct downloads. But then direct downloads could just as easily force trailers on people.