A comparison of PS3 and 360 as media players

[mrcorbo]

So what you are meaning are 60 fps interlaced and progressive video files? Do you really know what those are?

Yes. BTW, 60 "fps" is an odd way to refer to interlaced content since fps usually refers to frames per second.

Ok you list three features for supported formats (containers and codecs).

1: File container features: What is it that the PS3 media player cannot do that other media players do?

I listed them. Should I quote myself?

2: I have never had any problems seeking with the PS3 media player. Regarding performance, there does not seem to be any problems playing DF's 60 fps 720p videos. Do you have access to any 1080p 60fps videos that we can test?

I have problems when playing high-bandwidth files over the network. Problems that I don't have on my laptop in the same room. Both are connected to the same 802.11n WAP through a switch. These problems are aggravated by seeking.

3: If the image different media player spits out differ differ, one (or both) of them is faulty. Image quality (vibrancy of colors, black levels, no ghosting etc) comes from the display, and a video player decodes the images and send them to the display.

Not necessarily. Scaling and color conversions (SD and HD content have different color standards) are two areas that can have a noticeable effect on picture quality.

 

[mrcorbo]

why wouldnt the PS3 play pretty much any framerate <=60?

NTSC devices usually don't support PAL content and visa-versa. Itried some samples from here with no sucess on my NTSC PS3.

Question is, does your PC switch resolution to 24, 25 Hz when playing movies so able TVs can do the best to display them judder-free (or upconvert to 100/200 Hz)?

Yes it does change resolution for 24p content. 25p is slowed down to 24p, though and 50i is deinterlaced to 25p and then also slowed down. All of this happens automatically.

And how much work is it to get all codecs for Window Media Center and configuring it for stuff like that (doesnt play more than a PS3 ootb)
What codec are you using for mkv for example? if you use the divx one its a mess that sucks up all available memory, if you use ffdshow that means no media foundation functionality (no mkv files when you host a dnla server via WMP)

Download LAVFilters. Download FFDshow Tryouts x86 and/or x64 as appropriate. Install both. Don't use WMP as a DLNA server because there are better options. Done.

 

[Npl]

NTSC devices usually don't support PAL content and visa-versa. Itried some samples from here with no sucess on my NTSC PS3.

theres nothing ntsc/pal specific in the files themself. framerate is the only concern with digital media... that and possible regionlocks (that Im not aware of with downloadable files). I sucessfully played 24,25,30,50,60 Hz files on my PS3 - doesnt seem to be intimidated by any of these.
can you link to a specific file you got problems with, maybe its some level or encoding setting the PS3 rejects.

Yes it does change resolution for 24p content. 25p is slowed down to 24p, though and 50i is deinterlaced to 25p and then also slowed down. All of this happens automatically.

Good, cause this is always a problem on my side, never seems to work right, certainly not ootb.

Download LAVFilters. Download FFDshow Tryouts x86 and/or x64 as appropriate. Install both. Don't use WMP as a DLNA server because there are better options. Done.

installing 2 packs which share the same fileformats doesnt seem like an ugly mess for you? And no I dont have problems playing back any media on my Monitor (PC-like playback, non-optimal framerate,etc) but using the TV is rather messy.
I use MPC-HC personally, but I wouldnt dare even thinking about customizing everything so it could be conveniently controlled from the couch.
And better DNLA-Server, you mean the Java based hogs? I havent yet encountered any other server thats running so frugal with little CPU and Memory requirements in the background like MS`s WMP.

 

[joker454]

Where do you get 60i/p video files

From video cameras like the Sony HDR-CX700V, it records 60p.

I don't ever think there should be an argument on whether a PC can handle more file types and handle them better than the consoles, ever, however straight out of the box? Joker glosses over the additional applications that need to be installed to allow for his stored content to work hell there are still no DVD codecs in the low-end Windows 7 versions.

You can install a free codec pack and all video types will play. I use the Shark pack. I've purposely kept this machine clean but if your curious this is the entire list of things I installed on it:


Required:
Windows 7
Shark codec pack

The above is all most people will need. So basically install the OS, install shark pack and you are ready to go, no tweaks necessary. I have never even launched the Shark control panel, never needed to. I added the following:


To play blu-rays:
Total Media Theater 5

That above I use to play blu-ray rips from raid with full menu support, chapter support, etc. If you have no interest in playing physical media or rips of physical media then you can skip this.


To play games:
Steam
360 Controller support drivers

I use this machine for pc gaming hence I installed these. Most here can skip these since they don't pc game.


For my business:
Vegas Pro 10
TMPGEnc 5

I also use this machine as a render mule, which for me requires the above. Everyone here can skip these.


And that's it. Honest, that's all I've installed on this machine. I don't need anything more, and hence this machine has been running like a champ for quite some time now. In my case since I pc game I do update the video drivers, but again that's a step most everyone here can skip since they don't pc game. I do apply Windows patches regularly as well. The only tweak I ever did was adjust the overscan so that the entire display fits on my plasma. Nothing more, ever, honest! If you don't believe me then I'd be happy to show you next time you are in LA

 

[Onkl Bjorni]

XBMC

Have not read the hole thread, but have read the 4-5 last pages. And all this talk about media pc I'm surprised no one has mentioned the XBMC media center program.
I have used it since it was known as xbox media player, and have never had any problems playing any file formats. Now I have a Mac mini (with XBMC) as a media pc, and could not be happier

Also have it installed on both my iPad and iPhone4. Works perfectly fine streaming SD videos.

Anyway, check out www.xbmc.org, it's come a long way since it was on the xbox

 

[tuna]

From video cameras like the Sony HDR-CX700V, it records 60p.

It records in what resolution and framerate?

 

[joker454]

It records in what resolution and framerate?

Prolly easier to just add a link:

http://store.sony.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=20153&catalogId=&langId=200&productId=8198552921666294237

 

[tuna]

Yes. BTW, 60 "fps" is an odd way to refer to interlaced content since fps usually refers to frames per second.

How should you write it then? People ususally write the resolution and then whether it is interlaced or not, like 1080i or 720p, and if you have a specified frame rate, something like 720p60.

I listed them. Should I quote myself?

Please do, I am a bit confused as what features the PS3 media player does not have.

I have problems when playing high-bandwidth files over the network. Problems that I don't have on my laptop in the same room. Both are connected to the same 802.11n WAP through a switch. These problems are aggravated by seeking.

Do you use DLNA to stream to your laptop?

Not necessarily. Scaling and color conversions (SD and HD content have different color standards) are two areas that can have a noticeable effect on picture quality.

How does SD and HD contents' color coding differ regarding video in the codecs the PS3 supports?

 

[tuna]

Prolly easier to just add a link:

http://store.sony.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=20153&catalogId=&langId=200&productId=8198552921666294237

Why can you just not tell me?

 

[AlphaWolf]

Many digital cameras will do 50/60p now in one mode or another including my T2i

 

[tuna]

What codec are you using for mkv for example? if you use the divx one its a mess that sucks up all available memory, if you use ffdshow that means no media foundation functionality (no mkv files when you host a dnla server via WMP)

mkv (matroska) is a container format that can contain video files encoded with different codecs.

 

[joker454]

Why can you just not tell me?

Because I assumed you wanted to know it's full specs, and because most people usually follow claims with "link?". Hence, I linked. Here, copy and pasted from that website:

1920x1080 Full HD 60p Recording
Video Mode : HD PS: Approx. 28Mbps
Video Resolution : HD: 1920x1080/60p (PS)

There's lots more info at that link if you are willing to click it.

 

[Npl]

mkv (matroska) is a container format that can contain video files encoded with different codecs.

yes indeed and windows 7 doesnt support it ootb. install a media foundation filter that can split those files (DivxHD has those, but they grind my system to a halt - even when not actively watching some mkv files) and not only will WMP play back those files but also you will see them across the network when using Win7`s DLNA server.

 

[-tkf-]

How should you write it then? People ususally write the resolution and then whether it is interlaced or not, like 1080i or 720p, and if you have a specified frame rate, something like 720p60.

Res/framerate

However you can have 50i/60p/50PsF etc.. so it´s always a good idea to add those.

PsF is the fun one
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_segmented_frame

 

[mrcorbo]

How should you write it then? People ususally write the resolution and then whether it is interlaced or not, like 1080i or 720p, and if you have a specified frame rate, something like 720p60.

60i ins't 60 frames per second. It's 60 fields per second, 30 frames per second.

Please do, I am a bit confused as what features the PS3 media player does not have.

OK.

...supporting all of the features of the file containers it handles (multiple streams, chapters, subtitles)

Do you use DLNA to stream to your laptop?

No.

How does SD and HD contents' color coding differ regarding video in the codecs the PS3 supports?

SD content (such as from ripped DVDs) is encoded so that colors will be rendered correctly if the display is calibrated to the values recommended by the BT.601 standard. HD content is encoded so that colors will be rendered correctly if the display is calibrated to the values recommended by the BT.709 standard. If your HDTV is calibrated correctly (to the BT.709 standard) then SD content would be rendered incorrectly if the playback device did not do a color conversion to compensate for the difference between the reference levels of the content and the display. This color conversion can be done with varying levels of precision (or not at all) from device to device and the output will be numerically different in each case. I'm not sure how the PS3 deals with this or even if it deals with it. Realistically, most probably wouldn't even notice as the difference is not dramatic. You'd likely have to see the incorrectly rendered colors side by side with correctly rendered colors to notice. Ideally, the conversion should still be done, though.

Here's a link I found to an article that explains this in more detail.

 

[tuna]

60i ins't 60 frames per second. It's 60 fields per second, 30 frames per second.

I never claimed it was. I will quote wikipedia: "The term 1080i assumes a widescreen aspect ratio of 16:9, implying a frame size of 1920×1080 pixels. Each frame of 1080i video consists of two fields of 1920×540 pixels each."

 

[tuna]

Do you use DLNA to stream to your laptop?

No.

Then I would say your problems with seeking are due to network performance (I assume you use DLNA to stream to your PS3).

 

[tuna]

SD content (such as from ripped DVDs) is encoded so that colors will be rendered correctly if the display is calibrated to the values recommended by the BT.601 standard. HD content is encoded so that colors will be rendered correctly if the display is calibrated to the values recommended by the BT.709 standard. If your HDTV is calibrated correctly (to the BT.709 standard) then SD content would be rendered incorrectly if the playback device did not do a color conversion to compensate for the difference between the reference levels of the content and the display. This color conversion can be done with varying levels of precision (or not at all) from device to device and the output will be numerically different in each case. I'm not sure how the PS3 deals with this or even if it deals with it. Realistically, most probably wouldn't even notice as the difference is not dramatic. You'd likely have to see the incorrectly rendered colors side by side with correctly rendered colors to notice. Ideally, the conversion should still be done, though.

Here's a link I found to an article that explains this in more detail.

What if the DVD ripper performs this color coding? And also, what about content recorded from TV (which can be both SD and HD)?

Also, wouldn't you manually have to set what color encoding you want, or does the container or codec give you this info?

 

[NavNucST3]

From video cameras like the Sony HDR-CX700V, it records 60p.




You can install a free codec pack and all video types will play. I use the Shark pack. I've purposely kept this machine clean but if your curious this is the entire list of things I installed on it:


Required:
Windows 7
Shark codec pack

The above is all most people will need. So basically install the OS, install shark pack and you are ready to go, no tweaks necessary. I have never even launched the Shark control panel, never needed to. I added the following:


To play blu-rays:
Total Media Theater 5

That above I use to play blu-ray rips from raid with full menu support, chapter support, etc. If you have no interest in playing physical media or rips of physical media then you can skip this.


To play games:
Steam
360 Controller support drivers

I use this machine for pc gaming hence I installed these. Most here can skip these since they don't pc game.


For my business:
Vegas Pro 10
TMPGEnc 5

I also use this machine as a render mule, which for me requires the above. Everyone here can skip these.


And that's it. Honest, that's all I've installed on this machine. I don't need anything more, and hence this machine has been running like a champ for quite some time now. In my case since I pc game I do update the video drivers, but again that's a step most everyone here can skip since they don't pc game. I do apply Windows patches regularly as well. The only tweak I ever did was adjust the overscan so that the entire display fits on my plasma. Nothing more, ever, honest! If you don't believe me then I'd be happy to show you next time you are in LA

Ok, bro, look... I'm not trying to argue for the sake of arguing but when last I looked at TMT5 it cost about $100, now, I can afford $100 but seriously that is half a 360 right there and almost the entire cost of my admittedly meh (as far as features) samsung c6800 3D BD player. This is what I'm talking about. Now you could go pedant on me and suggest that I DO have to install zune marketplace on the 360 and that there IS a setup wizard on the 360 and I wouldn't argue that you were wrong but I would argue the nuanced differences in skill, time, and money required. While I recognize in my case that the Mac could be (is) a hindrance as a upnp server I would say that my major issues with bootcamp didn't really stem from the Mac because it was a Mac but more from DVI -> HDMI cable. I didn't hate jriver or xbmc nor did I love them dealing with mymovies and settings in each of the apps wasn't my idea of fun. An offer stands for you and yours as well...next time you're in Chicago you have an invite and then we can argue in person

I'm still interested in an HTPC for all the mud I have just slung but for a streamlined experience, for someone who is a heavy purchaser of digital content, neither the PC nor PS3 offered me a better experience than the 360 but please keep in mind that I bought the 360 (two in fact) on launch day and am intimately more familiar with its nuances. There are definitely some plusses for going HTPC for my household but to be honest now I'm in hold mode as I await MSFTs Live TV flesh-out.

 

[mrcorbo]

theres nothing ntsc/pal specific in the files themself. framerate is the only concern with digital media... that and possible regionlocks (that Im not aware of with downloadable files). I sucessfully played 24,25,30,50,60 Hz files on my PS3 - doesnt seem to be intimidated by any of these.
can you link to a specific file you got problems with, maybe its some level or encoding setting the PS3 rejects.

I'll take your word for it that it works, then.

installing 2 packs which share the same fileformats doesnt seem like an ugly mess for you?

Well, they aren't really packs. Libavfilters is being installed to provide the libav splitter which will handle pretty much any container and ffdshow is being installed to handle the video and audio decoding. Libavfilters also includes an audio decoder, but you can just choose to not install that. And even if you do install it, it doesn't really cause any problems.

And no I dont have problems playing back any media on my Monitor (PC-like playback, non-optimal framerate,etc) but using the TV is rather messy.

How so? I stayed at a friend's house last week while he and his family went on vacation so I could take care of his dog (and keep him company). I disconnected my laptop from my TV at home and reconnected it there and while I did have to go in and re-adjust for the overscan on his TV I was up and running in about 5 minutes. HDMI to TV, power brick to wall, adjust overscan, connect to WiFi. Done.

I use MPC-HC personally, but I wouldnt dare even thinking about customizing everything so it could be conveniently controlled from the couch.

Wireless mouse and keyboard. I use this and this. I keep the mouse within reach. The keyboard doesn't get that much use, so I keep it put away when I don't need it. You might be surprised how well a mouse actually works when navigating a media library or even navigating within a media file. The mouse wheel can act as a jog/shuttle wheel to skip through the file and the back forward buttons that you use when navigating web pages act as next/prev chapter in a file and next/prev file in a playlist. Plus you can directly click to a point on the timeline and go right to a specific part of a file (fine tuning using the mouse wheel to get to the specific point you want). Optionally, you can get a MCE remote and IR receiver combo and that's just plug and play. The buttons on the remote work as the Windows standard media controls (such as you see on media keyboards) and work just fine to control not only Windows Media Center, but also MPC-HC or any other player that supports the Windows media controls..

And better DNLA-Server, you mean the Java based hogs? I havent yet encountered any other server thats running so frugal with little CPU and Memory requirements in the background like MS`s WMP.

To each their own, I guess. You are the first person I have ever heard express a preference for WMP as a DLNA server.