A comparison of PS3 and 360 as media players

[-tkf-]

New PS3 Media Server build:
http://ps3mediaserver.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3217

I wondered what happend to the updates, were i looking at the wrong place?

 

[patsu]

Cool, I was wondering what happened to him since the PMS update has slowed.

There was a Blu-Con 2.0 convention on Nov 4th. DEC revealed some info about Blu-ray's status:
http://www.dealerscope.com/article/...oughout-day-blu-con-los-angeles-414132_1.html

- According to figures released by DEG: The Digital Entertainment Group, Blu-ray players are currently in around 11.7 million U.S. households. Overall sales of Blu-ray software have risen 83 percent so far this year, while sales of Blu-ray set-top players, at 3.3 million through three quarters, have risen 112 percent on the year.

- Purchase interest in Blu-ray technology is 54 percent higher among those who have seen a side-by-side demonstration of standard DVD and Blu-ray, DEG President Ron Sanders said.

- Blu-ray has entered the top ten in CE products most wanted by adults for the holidays for the first time ever, CEA chief economist Shawn DuBravac said. He added that Year 4 was when DVD crossed over in earnest, and we're now in Year 4 of Blu-ray.

 

[patsu]

Managed Copy delayed until March 2010:
http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6705943.html

Studios and other Blu-ray licensees must sign the final agreement to keep using Blu-ray. So far, 600 companies worldwide have done so, AACS-LA chair Michael Ayers said. Once content holders sign, they must make all discs ready for managed copy, essentially including a link on the disc directing the Blu-ray player to an authentication server.

In the meantime, that means Blu-ray discs will come out managed copy-ready without any player support.

That’s why the AACS-LA has pushed back the start date for some managed copy requirements from the first quarter to the second. Studios and content holders aren’t required to promote and label discs as managed copy-ready until March 31. That’s when the AACS-LA expects to have its authentication servers up and running, Ayers said.

On paper...

Managed copies can be burned to recordable Blu-ray or DVD discs, as a download to a Windows Media DRM-compatible portable player or hard drive, on a memory stick, SD card or as a bound copy, such as a digital copy file on the disc, though AACS-LA can approve other methods going forward.

 

[AzBat]

Good thing the war with HD-DVD is over...

Tommy McClain

 

[patsu]

Another report on Blu-Con 2.0:
http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/s..._to_Connect_Viewers_to_Movies_AND_People/3729

It summarizes the 5 major studio's BD-Live philosophy and products.

 

[patsu]

A truckload of details and tidbits about Blu-ray from Blu-Con 2.0:
http://www.thedigitalbits.com/mytwocentsa173.html#110509

Expect holiday Blu-ray player prices to be around $99 for profile 1.1 players and $149 for profile 2.0 players. SOME of the 2.0 may be as low as $99. That's considered to be the mass market price needed for sales to really start breaking out in 2010.

Blu-ray customer satisfaction: 90% of Blu-ray owners are very happy with the format and 85% would recommend it to a friend.

BD software sales are up 80% for the first three quarters of 2009 over the same timeframe last year.

For the biggest blockbuster titles, as much as 30% of all disc sales have been on Blu-ray.

Best Buy is expecting 95% U.S. household penetration of HDTVs by 2013. The CEA (Consumer Electronics Association) predicts the 60% penetration by the end of this year.

CEA: Despite popularity, DVRs are still only in about 30% of U.S. households.

Best Buy believes that software pricing and perception of value is going to be key in driving Blu-ray into the mass market. Adding DVD and Digital Copy to BD packages is good, but charging a premium for that is not.

Blu-ray player sales are growing faster than any other electronics category, and the initial 4-year period of Blu-ray player sales growth is matching or exceeding that of standard DVD during its first 4 years.

Best Buy expects as many as 10 million BD players to be in U.S. homes by the end of this year, and predictions are that 18.6 million will sell by the end of 2010. (Includes PS3).

Consumer awareness of Blu-ray is a key area the industry needs to work on. Best Buy research shows that only 32% of its consumers are familiar with Blu-ray this year, up from 29% last year and 19% in 2007.

The good news is that 60% of consumers who are familiar with Blu-ray have at least some intent to purchase the format in the next year, especially if the price is below $150.

Research indicates that Blu-ray players' backwards compatibility with DVD is a mixed blessing - most people who have purchased Blu-ray players still purchase at least 1/3rd of their movie titles on standard DVD. HOWEVER, as Blu-ray software prices drop, there's no reason to believe that Blu-ray won't be 100% of the mix at some point in the next few years.

Consumers consider some titles worth buying and owning on Blu-ray, while other titles are considered best as rentals or DVD purchases only (at the existing software price points).

CEA: 2.7 million stand-alone Blu-ray players were sold in the U.S. last year. 3.7 have been sold so far this year, and 40-50% of all sales for the year happen in the 4th quarter, so CEA believes we could easily see the final total of BD stand-alone players sold in 2009 hit 6 or 7 million units. The number could go as high as 10 million, depending on supply and retailer aggressiveness.

CEA: PS3 sales were surpassed by stand-alone BD players for the first time in 2009.

CEA: Blu-ray players are still considered an early adopter product, but that's starting to change this year and there's tremendous growth potential.

Most Blu-ray players that are network-capable STILL aren't connected to the Internet. Convincing people to connect their players to the Net will continue to be a challenge, and must be addressed with wireless modems and a much easier process.

Consumer home video "transactions" were actually up 7% in the 3rd quarter of this year, but actual sales were down 2-3% (reflecting price discounting).

Universal figures that 10% of its customers for movie discs are major collectors, and they're still willing to buy - especially premium product like Blu-ray in collectible packaging.

The growth trends in home video are going to be Blu-ray, VOD (Video on Demand) and EST (electronic transactions). Digital Copy will gradually evolve such that everyone will eventually have a "locker in the cloud" where they can store digital movie files they've purchased, and all of a person's consumer media devices will be able to "reach up into that cloud" to access the material. The "locker" will also provide security against data loss. But for the foreseeable future, none of this will have the quality level of Blu-ray and avid movie fans and collectors will continue to prefer the physical product. A key idea is to do more bundling, so when you purchase the Blu-ray you also get a DVD and some kind of portable digital version.

One "rental" idea that's being explored is the notion that you could purchase a digital file version from a retail kiosk - you could load it onto a flash drive right in the store and take it anywhere - but there are many technical and security-based hurdles still to overcome.

Regardless, physical product isn't going away. The future is going to be a combination of all three - Blu-ray, VOD and EST - and they should complement each other.

About 3D TV + Blu-ray:

According to the Blu-ray Disc Association, the final spec for 3D Blu-ray (possibly called 3D-BD or something like it) will be announced by the end of the year, likely in December. The spec WILL REQUIRE that all 3D capable displays (regardless of how they process the 3D-BD signal) will use the same signal. The spec will be DISPLAY FORMAT AGNOSTIC, meaning whether the display is Plasma or LCD based (or whether it uses active or passive glasses) won't matter. So if you buy a 3D-BD player, it will work will all properly marked 3D display technologies. What's more, all 3D-BD discs will be backwards compatible with current Blu-ray players, so the disc will include both a 3D version in the new spec AND a standard 2D version for current players - all in full 1080p. The 3D-BD spec will require full 1080p signal delivery for each eye - left and right. The intent is that there's only one shot to get it right, so make sure it's a standard that will work for a long time to come.

An important point to make: THERE IS NO 3D-BD spec format war. Every company in the industry is cooperating on the final spec. The only difference is that the DISPLAY technology each company uses may be different, but the 3D-BD spec will be used by ALL of them.

Manufacturers will introduce a variety of 3D signal processing technologies, some based on plasma and some on LCD. Some will use active shutter glasses and some will use passive or polarized glasses. These technologies will be on display at CES in January and the first gear (and 3D-BD movie titles) will start arriving by mid-2010. Some product announcements MAY be made at CES. The glasses needed will be sold with the DISPLAYS, not the players, because the type of glasses needed will be dependent on the display.

All of the CE manufacturers stressed that 3D display is here to stay. It's not just about Blu-ray - you'll see cable and satellite offerings, live sports broadcasts and even gaming in 3D. The next round of gaming consoles are likely to support 3D gaming.

There WILL be a premium for the 3D capability in terms of display/player pricing, but as with all new technologies, this will drop over time.

This is particularly interesting: Multiple sources at the event - including one Sony source - informed me that there's a possibility that the PS3 can be firmware-updated to make full 3D gaming and (possibly even) 3D Blu-ray playback possible. All you'd need to do is to buy the glasses as an accessory. This may be possible because of the power of the PS3's Cell processor.

As far as consumer interest in 3D, InStat reports that 10% of consumers are extremely interested in 3D, 15% are very interested, 39% are somewhat interested, 26% not very and only 10% not at all. The interest is very price sensitive however.

The link has more.

 

[joker454]

An important point to make: THERE IS NO 3D-BD spec format war. Every company in the industry is cooperating on the final spec. The only difference is that the DISPLAY technology each company uses may be different, but the 3D-BD spec will be used by ALL of them.

That's a relief. I had no interest in 3d until I very recently was demo'd a whole bunch of scenes from popular movies all converted to 3d at a companies theater screening room. Needless to say I was blown away, now I want it Still not sure I'm all that crazy about having to wear the glasses though.

This is particularly interesting: Multiple sources at the event - including one Sony source - informed me that there's a possibility that the PS3 can be firmware-updated to make full 3D gaming and (possibly even) 3D Blu-ray playback possible. All you'd need to do is to buy the glasses as an accessory. This may be possible because of the power of the PS3's Cell processor.

Normally the cpu has little to do with it. It's all about the gpu rendering two frames, each one having stuff offset by a bit depending how close or how far away you want them to be. Any platform can do it if it has enough gpu power. For example, I saw a 3d demo running on an older nvidia quadro card on a regular pc and it worked fine. For the current consoles to do it all they have to do it spec and render the game at 60fps, then halve that to be able to render both offset frames to get it working 3d at full 1280x720 res.

 

[Arwin]

Needless to say I was blown away, now I want it

Yeah, it's a definite case of seeing is believing!

 

[BadTB25]

Is there anyway of doing this without the glasses?
Also, will the TV be able to still output regular HD without the 3D effects?

I haven't really kept up with the technology.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

My first 3D movie was Up! I wasn't that impressed. The 3D effect is good when the image is stationary, or slightly changing, but fast motion juddered horrifically. I also found it distracting, that I was looking at the 3D effect rather than the story. And when you 'switch off' from looking at the 3D effect, you notice it doesn't really add anything. So I for one am in no rush. I want faster framerates overall, and only 3D when it doesn't need glasses and when it actually contributes something rather than just being a gimmick.

 

[manux]

Normally the cpu has little to do with it. It's all about the gpu rendering two frames, each one having stuff offset by a bit depending how close or how far away you want them to be. Any platform can do it if it has enough gpu power. For example, I saw a 3d demo running on an older nvidia quadro card on a regular pc and it worked fine. For the current consoles to do it all they have to do it spec and render the game at 60fps, then halve that to be able to render both offset frames to get it working 3d at full 1280x720 res.

For movie decoding there is obvious need for more hw power to decode 2 images instead of 1. PS3 should have the hw power and flexibility to do that. Standalone players with their dedicated decoders on the other hand...

 

[Crossbar]

Is there anyway of doing this without the glasses?

No, this BD-spec does not support that.

The 3D-BD spec will require full 1080p signal delivery for each eye - left and right.

A screen not requiring glasses will need more information than that to work properly. I guess we should not expect such screens aimed at the mass market for another 5-10 years now, given this BD spec.

Also, will the TV be able to still output regular HD without the 3D effects?

I would expect it to be selectable.

@patsu, thanks for the meaty information!

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I would expect it to be selectable.

Bound to be standard TV capable. How many people will be happy to have 2 TVs in the prime TV spot?

 

[joker454]

For movie decoding there is obvious need for more hw power to decode 2 images instead of 1. PS3 should have the hw power and flexibility to do that. Standalone players with their dedicated decoders on the other hand...

Are they really going to go with two simultaneous streams for 3d blu-ray? That would effectively halve the blu-ray 50gb/40mbps video spec leaving them 25gb/20mbps available for each 1920x1080p stream.

My first 3D movie was Up! I wasn't that impressed. The 3D effect is good when the image is stationary, or slightly changing, but fast motion juddered horrifically. I also found it distracting, that I was looking at the 3D effect rather than the story. And when you 'switch off' from looking at the 3D effect, you notice it doesn't really add anything. So I for one am in no rush. I want faster framerates overall, and only 3D when it doesn't need glasses and when it actually contributes something rather than just being a gimmick.

The one I saw was a new tech, apparently not seen by the public yet. The glasses weren't new, but the 2d->3d process was new. It was a private screening room at their corporate location and it looked incredible to me. They just took short classic scenes from assorted movies from the 70's to today and 3d'd them to show off the tech and get buyers. I suspect people will be hearing about them more soon.

 

[manux]

Are they really going to go with two simultaneous streams for 3d blu-ray? That would effectively halve the blu-ray 50gb/40mbps video spec leaving them 25gb/20mbps available for each 1920x1080p stream.

My best guess would be one stream with variant of h264 that is optimized for storing 3d movies. What I have been reading it requires 50% more space compared to the normal single frame 1080p video. PS3 has anyway 2* br drive which would allow a bit higher bitrates than what are used currently.

I'm not holding my breath though, it might very well be ps3 will not end up supporting 3d movies. It just is much more likely for ps3 than for current and past standalone players.

 

[patsu]

I thought the PS3 engineers already implemented 2 parallel BD streams when the PiP specs was not fully defined at BD launch. It also has spare capacity to run a Java app at the same time. There was an interview with the Japanese engineers that mentioned this 2-3 years ago. Basically, they planned it that way to fake early BD PiP.

As I understand, the potential problem is more with the HDMI 1.3a port. May not be an issue with PS3 Slim though since it uses a newer chip.

 

[BadTB25]

I will not be in a hurry to get a 3D capable TV. In the future, if they can figure out how to get the effect without the glasses, I may reconsider.

 

[joker454]

My best guess would be one stream with variant of h264 that is optimized for storing 3d movies. What I have been reading it requires 50% more space compared to the normal single frame 1080p video. PS3 has anyway 2* br drive which would allow a bit higher bitrates than what are used currently.

I'm not holding my breath though, it might very well be ps3 will not end up supporting 3d movies. It just is much more likely for ps3 than for current and past standalone players.

Well personally I feel it would be madness to introduce a 3d blu-ray format that didn't work on PS3. That way when 3d blu-ray movies are ready they will be launching into a market that already has 30+ million players. Seems like the logical thing to do.

I thought the PS3 engineers already implemented 2 parallel BD streams when the PiP specs was not fully defined at BD launch. It also has spare capacity to run a Java app at the same time. There was an interview with the Japanese engineers that mentioned this 2-3 years ago. Basically, they planned it that way to fake early BD PiP.

As I understand, the potential problem is more with the HDMI 1.3a port. May not be an issue with PS3 Slim though since it uses a newer chip.

Pip streams are usually not very demanding though, space and bitrate wise. Whereas with 3d the left frame is as demanding as the right frame, so you are basically doubling space and bitrate needs. I don't doubt that the PS3 has the muscle to process it all, but it's that 50gb/40mbps space and bitrate specs that seem like they could be limiting if they go with two full streams.

I took a look at my blu-rays just to see how much space each movie needs. Each one is stripped to the bare movie + best audio track into a single m2ts file. Out of 81 movies the biggest is 44.1gb, the smallest is 14.6gb. 38 of them are >25gb, and 43 are <25gb in size. So if they do intend to go with two streams, I guess they will need to be quite clever.

 

[patsu]

Pip streams are usually not very demanding though, space and bitrate wise. Whereas with 3d the left frame is as demanding as the right frame, so you are basically doubling space and bitrate needs. I don't doubt that the PS3 has the muscle to process it all, but it's that 50gb/40mbps space and bitrate specs that seem like they could be limiting if they go with two full streams.

Yes, 2 parallel streams is an overkill for PiP. But the engineers mentioned that they made the worst case assumption and went with it because they had to complete the implementation before the BD specs was finalized. The same article also cited 3D movie as a reason why they optimized for 2 parallel streams during development.

I could find the link on B3D, but the source site is no longer there.

 

[Apoc]

Xbox360 plays all the formats I've thrown at it when using Win7 and connecting to Media Center via 360.

That's right, but what people want is that they play all formats on their own, not having to use a computer.