A bit of love for Super Smash Bros.

Crayon

Regular
I'm a longtime genre-addict fighting gamer. Faqs, tournaments, training, road trips, etc.

I never got into "smashing" but I was introduced to the game and I was able to assess it. I just want to take a second to spread the message.

The game is often percieved to be not quite in the fighting genre. It is. Squarlely.

The misconception comes from the idea that the game is a dumbed down version of a real fighting game, tuned for kids and non-skilled, with a tradeoff in skill ceiling and balance so severe that it could hardly be considered a fighting game.

Take for instance Dead or Alive. This game was made by some people who seem to have no idea what they where doing. They basicly just threw took alot of features that casual fighting fans like and jsut hosed the game down with them, adding a good deal of slop to make sure beginners could have fun. DOA as a result makes for great low-level matches. Degrades into tedium at mid level and is literally unplayable at high level.

Smash, on the other hand was made by somebody who had such a firm grasp on good mechanics that they were able to wildly re-interpret them. The game masterfully solves low level snags like turtling and projectile abuse with elegant solutions rather than band aids (Alpha 3, I'm looking at you) and even makes room for four players and highly involved stages.

Smash solves problems fighting games have struggled with for years and it does so while retaining balance and a skill ceiling that stretches smoothly from never played a fighting game to well into mid level. I can't comment on high level as I've never seen it. To give some perspective to non-fighting gamers, when I say hi level I'm talking about pretty effin good. Better than you've likely ever encountered. Better on anything you see on XBox live or even casual games with the best in the world. So when I say "at least well into mid level" I mean you can get better at it that you will ever be able to get given the game's dismal state of competition.

Even if you never get to try the game, I just wanted to set the record straight.
 
I wouldn't call Super Smash a traditional fighting game at all really, but I will say that a four-player game of it is probably the most fun anyone will ever have on a console.

Big fan of Super Smash Bros.
 
I wouldn't call Super Smash a traditional fighting game at all really

I would argue that it's every bit as traditional as Marvel v Cap 2 is. They are both a deconstruction and rebuild of standard mechanics. From a core mechanics standpoint they are equidistant from say, Virtua Fighter.

It helps to remember that rock/paper/scissors is the origional fighting game. All proper fighting games build on rock paper scissors.
 
I would argue that it's every bit as traditional as Marvel v Cap 2 is. They are both a deconstruction and rebuild of standard mechanics. From a core mechanics standpoint they are equidistant from say, Virtua Fighter.

It helps to remember that rock/paper/scissors is the origional fighting game. All proper fighting games build on rock paper scissors.

First of all Crayon, I don't know who your original post was even directed to really. Seemingly some 'fighting game' elite out there. ;)

I can tell you that when I play a game like Soul Caliber 3 vs a game like Super Smash Bros, the experience I get is completely different, as are the look and feel.

Super Smash Bros should no more be compared to 'traditional' fighting games than Mario Kart to traditional racing games, or Zelda to traditional adventure games. It shares that same level of seperation that those others do to it's 'common' ilk.

I'll note also that whatever other hardcore fighting forums you might frequent, B3D is a generally very Super Smash friendly place, and I've certainly never heard anyone 'hate' on it, let alone compare it to Virtua Fighter 5.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
... let alone compare it to Virtua Fighter 5.

Nah it's the same shit. =)

I'm a bit fuzzy at who it was going to but I can tell you all about who it was coming from.

I'm what you call a genre addict in regards to fighting games. You can thank me and the rest of us for shaping the development of fighting games. You can thank us for the decline and demise of fighting games. And we can blame ourselves for our ever dwindling numbers and bitterness. All because whenever something would be a genre milestone like Smash we turn our backs on it. Smash was successful in it's own right but instead of appropriating it into the subculture we rejected it and further distanced ourselves from the mainstream. We suck but at least we're dying off.

It's not forums I frequent but actual places with actual faces. LA is preffered but some parts of the east bay have sporadic action. It's fizzling. Again. Our fault. Luckily there's Bearcade on campus at UC Berkely. It's kept up as a labor of love by soem real fighting fanatacs and it's like a dream come true. They actually have a Virtual On (very much a fighting game) machine where all the controls always work, and you never sit down on it without being immediatly challenged with somebody who actually knows how to play Virtual On.

I guess the post was to nobody but myself. :oops:
 
I'm going to stick with my Mario Kart : Super Smash :: GT4 : VF5 thinking, but I freely recognize you as an authority on fighting games. :)
 
I'm going to stick with my Mario Kart : Super Smash :: GT4 : VF5 thinking, but I freely recognize you as an authority on fighting games. :)

One of these things is not like the others!

Replace GT4 with Scud Race and I'll say "that's fair". =)
 
as a seasoned fighter myself, and somebody who only recently discovered SSB:M, i can back up Crayon here - that little title is considerably deeper than what meets the eye at a first glance. yes, there's a fair amount of non-orthodoxality in there, but when it comes to the fighting element, it's a fighter, alright. many may mistakenly put it in the same genre as powerstone but the two games are faily different precisely in the fighing aspect.
 
I don't know, I just think the platformer-like mobility, four-way fighting, and fight-altering items-out-of-nowhere put it into it's own category. This isn't to say I don't find the game incredibly deep, just that it seems a hybrid of sorts, with aspects of many other genres grafted on in very serious and meangingful ways in terms of their effects on gameplay.
 
I don't know, I just think the platformer-like mobility, four-way fighting, and fight-altering items-out-of-nowhere put it into it's own category. This isn't to say I don't find the game incredibly deep, just that it seems a hybrid of sorts, with aspects of many other genres grafted on in very serious and meangingful ways in terms of their effects on gameplay.

See: Marvel V Capcom 1.

Powerstone I'd be willing to put into a grey area in case I'm missing something, but I don't consider it a fighter, myself. It's a chair-throwing game and excellent in it's own right but it almost seems to trace back to "catch". Not Rock paper scissors.
 
I await the hardcore SSB frame analysis. ;)

I wish it would come!
Frame data is what indisputably proved that DOA3 was half ass hackneyed horseshit.
I've no doubt it would prove the fundamental decency of Smash's system. Too bad there's just not enough comp to motivate anyone to get the data.
 
Lol, this reminds me of my posts... ones where I make broad sweeping statements about genres, core mechanics, and innovation, as if nobody's ever heard them, expect to hear a bunch of complaints in reaction, and then the b3D crowd basically says "yeah? welcome to the party, the line forms in the back!" ;)

Well, I hear ya Crayon, the fighting genre is indeed in dire straits, and hopefully a Shenmue 3 can come out and put it all back together again. ;) *hides from counterattack*
 
I think DoA is a fun partygame, I mean I prefer Tekken over everything that has been mentioned in this thread, but DoA is still a fun game.

Not only is DOA fun but it is tuned up to make for some good low level play. Unfortunatly, the compromises to the basic balance are severe.

Take the reversals. The easy execution rewards beginner players for emplyong some anticipation and setup. This is alot of the reason you have alot of DOA fans claiming that you have to see two "masters" at the game playing to understand how deep it is. They've just never had their hands on a fighting game that rewards such low levels of skill.

Meanwhile, you get two real "masters" to play and suddenly the 20-something frame catch window for a reversal.... stop.

Stop stop stop.

Look at that. See how I automatically went in to a tirade about why DOA technically sucks? Genre Addict.

What I meant to say and what I should be doing is appreciating and expounding the merits of DOA as a beginner's fighting game. But nooooo. This elitest BS is like part of my fighter dna. Crazy huh? I'll try again:

Yes. DOA is really fun. =)
 
Last edited by a moderator:
[size=-2]
Make your first move
So what's it gonna be?
The champion of the world is Street Fighter 3
Fight for the Future
So what's it gonna be
The Third Strike y'all is Street Fighter 3​
[/size]



Fighting games aren't dead -- their developers are! ;)
 
I completely agree that DOA3, even 4, are flawed in their countering system (the one aspect imo that restricts hardcore level play). They tried to make it better in 4 by shortening the possible counter times, but its still long enough for many to take advantage of.

If this system was remedied (somehow), DOA would most definately be the best fighter around - I say this mostly from the fact I prefer the faster pace of this game :)
 
[size=-2]
Make your first move
So what's it gonna be?
The champion of the world is Street Fighter 3
Fight for the Future
So what's it gonna be
The Third Strike y'all is Street Fighter 3​
[/size]



Fighting games aren't dead -- their developers are! ;)

Third strike is where burnt out fighting gamers go when they die. It's heaven. Unless they where assholes in their former lives. They still go there but they play Chun Li.
 
Back
Top