3DO M2 dev kit on eBay

swaaye said:
Looking over the specs I keep seeing it almost feels as if the machine was designed to primarily use the PPC 602s as the renderer. There is very little mention of any sort of GPU.


well, the M2 did not contain a full GPU like Gamecube or Xbox. but it did contain rendering hardware.

the M2's main custom chip, the BDA (BullDog ASIC) contained the graphics rendering hardware, including triangle setup engine, the pixel pipeline, z-buffering, texture-mapping, lighting, gouraud shading, perspective correction, filtering, alpha-blending, mip mapping, etc. stuff.

one of the PPC 602s would have been the geometry processor / geometry engine / T&L unit, in the same capacity as the Vector Units in Emotion Engine or the SH4 CPU in Dreamcast.

one PPC 602 would feed the BDA 3D matrix data (im not comfortable using the term) just polygon transform calculations, then the BDA renders the graphics. it also did audio and MPEG1 decoding (later upgraded to MPEG2 after M2 console was canned).

the custom BDA chip contained something like, 10 co-processors (give or take). as of 1994, the custom chip, which I assume meant the BDA, contained 2.5 million transistors.


~circa 1997
"The real strength of 3DO lies in multimedia architecture/design talent" a
Hugh Martin quote.
"Over the past several years, 3DO engineers have significantly advanced
hardware system designs and software drivers, in addition to developing
software modems, MPEG codecs, and encryption systems. Much of that
knowledge was stitched into the ASIC at the heart of the M2 system-the BDA
chip, short for Bulldog ASIC, derived from the original project name. The
BDA integrates an audio DSP as well as an MPEG1 video decoder--soon to be
upgraded to MPEG2 for DVD-compatible systems--and advanced audio/video
graphics capability with a 3D graphics engine capable of offering 500,000
triangles per second, in addition to a separate 3D setup engine to free
the processing power of the two PowerPC's.
The ASIC is also capable of
decoding multiple video streams simultaeneously, while its video stream
can be mapped onto an object as texture. " [Note MPEG2/DVD connection
confirmed. Software modem is a new thing.]
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.video.3do/msg/183bfa311df6de34?dmode=source&hl=en


here's a nice quote by just some person:
The dual CPU's is not where the M2's power is at. The power of the M2 is in the BDA (Bulldog ASIC).
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.video.3do/msg/4276a3f588fa3412?dmode=source&hl=en





Fox 5: I don't think Dreamcast or PS2 could've handled that at 60fps. but Gamecube and Xbox would've been the starting point, in terms of any possibility of doing it realtime. PCs by 2001-2002 certainly had the performance to do that. the quality of the rendering was pretty high, the complexity moderatly high. the framerate, at least at that part in the cave was 60fps. i dunno if it's using per pixel lighting or per-vertex lighting. definitally looked bump-mapped, though. Well i guess, hell, with the anti-aliasing it used, maybe it would've taken Xbox360 to handle it.
 
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Heh heh heh.... what if they were planning on using sprites? Think Doom64.

Uh oh, there's a quote from a Rob Povey of Boss Game Studios here. ERP? :cool:
 
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unless I missed it in your large collection of NG articles, there was another one, either late 1996 or somewhere in 1997, where NG is skeptical of Matsushita claims that M2 has SEGA Model3 arcade performance. NG says M2 is closer to 2-3 times faster/more powerful than N64.

maybe that's in one of the issues you don't have.

note: I *did* see the late 1996 article you have, where Hiroyuki Sakai of Matsushita says:
"The M2 offers the same capabilities as Sega's Model 3 arcade board"

m2sameasmodel37jz.jpg



edit: actually going back to the November 1995 Next Generation magazine, someone at Sega or Lockheed Real3D (one of NG's contacts) already debunked the idea that 3DO M2 could compete with the Model 3 arcade board.

segamodel3vs3dom29lq.jpg




to be fair, the M2 would've been a $300~$400 console in 1996-1997, the Model 3 board cost, AT LEAST $6,000 alone. the M2 was sitting in a nice place between the Model 2 board and the Model 3 board. Also, it would've been very interesting to see comparisons of the beefier 3DO MX hardware vs the Model 3 board, vs the Dreamcast.
 
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I was looking for some info on the M2 and I found this, I think it's interesting :
The game we were making was Distrupor which is/was out for Playstation. The M2 version was planned to have 10 times the polygons and full 3d characters around 600 to 1500 polygons each but otherwise would have been about the same. We got the enemy 3d animation system working as well as our first level in memory but that's about as far as we got before the project was cancelled.
I'm sure there are many reasons the M2 never saw the light of day. From my personal point of view the people at 3DO just didn't have a clue. Instead of giving us a machine with a minimal OS and docs on the hardware they wanted to not give out hardware documentation and have programmers do all things through their OS routines. We showed them that this sucked. For example at the time you could display the famous COW model at a reasonably good frame rate but if you just tried to display 10 cubes with 6 polygons each it would run at only 10 frames a second. Instead of giving us hardware docs they wanted to add more features to the OS to try to make it work around some of it's slowness. note: they didn't want to make it faster they wanted to work around it's slowness by programming kludges and other useless things.
Because they spent so much time trying to write a really fancy OS they neglected what game programmers really needed. A fast C compiler, assembler and debugger. Compiling our game took 8 minutes. If you changed 1 line of code you had to wait 3 minutes to see the changes on the screen because of how poor the tools were. As a comparison on CTR to compile the entire game at the end of the project took 4 minutes. Changing 1 line of code and seeing the results probably took less than 30 seconds.
I'm sure there were lots of other reasons it failed but I tend to believe that had it been easy to write software for it then cool software would have appeared and driven the rest of the platform. It would have excited people. As it was all anybody ever saw was the COW.

ERP you already said that the OS was very advanced but is it true that the hardware was so abstracted that it was harmful for performance and that you didn't have low level access to the hardware ?

MegaDrive1988>The quote you're looking for is on this page : http://www.harpgallery.com/assets/images/swaaye/ng/ng-m2hitormyth-02.jpg

Matsushita itself claims the console is capable of (Model 3 levels of performance) and the rather less spirited comparisons from third parties of two to three times Nintendo 64's polygon horsepower
 
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Megadrive1988 said:
unless I missed it in your large collection of NG articles, there was another one, either late 1996 or somewhere in 1997, where NG is skeptical of Matsushita claims that M2 has SEGA Model3 arcade performance. NG says M2 is closer to 2-3 times faster/more powerful than N64.
Actually the "Matsushita Breaks Its Silence" developer interview talks about how it's equal in capability to Model 3.


Heh heh I have the issue of NG which covers the first Model 3 racer, Super GT. :)
 
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Zeross said:
I was looking for some info on the M2 and I found this, I think it's interesting :


ERP you already said that the OS was very advanced but is it true that the hardware was so abstracted that it was harmful for performance and that you didn't have low level access to the hardware ?

MegaDrive1988>The quote you're looking for is on this page : http://www.harpgallery.com/assets/images/swaaye/ng/ng-m2hitormyth-02.jpg



thanks Zeross! that's it, and thanks again Swaaye for having scanned all this stuff ^__^

btw, that other information about the OS and the slow nature of the way 3DO wanted games to be programmed, their unwillingness to give developers what they wanted, is indeed very interesting.
 
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ERP you already said that the OS was very advanced but is it true that the hardware was so abstracted that it was harmful for performance and that you didn't have low level access to the hardware ?

As I said one of the better designed Console OS's I've seenm Sony could probably still learn something from it :p

Back then people were more used to being able to directly attach to interupts, and the M2 OS was much more in line with the original 3DO OS where you use messages and threads to accomplish the same thing. The N64 OS was in a similar veign.
3DO did provide more documentation than any other Console OS I have ever seen, it was multiple large volumes, but that was more to do with documentation quality than OS complexity.
Prior to the Matsushita buyout they also had the best tech support I have ever experienced.

There was very little abstraction of the useful hardware, you could do all the vertex work yourself in assembler and just build a commond queue for the hardware if you wanted. You had to explicitly manage the Texture Cache ala N64 aswell.
 
ERP said:
You had to explicitly manage the Texture Cache ala N64 aswell.


that reminds me, the M2 had 16K texture cache, right? thats four times the amount N64 had.


on another note, gawd what I would give to be playing on the 3DO M4 right now, had it been developed. the M4 would've been an Xbox360/PS3 generation machine, I believe.

the MX was basicly the M3, actually.

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.video.3do/msg/fef7d59332c430cf?dmode=source&hl=en
There is no such project as "M3"...publicly, we refer to it as
MX...just though you would want to know ;)

Neal
Director, 3DO Customer & Production Services


thus, I guess MX was a DC-PS2-GCN-Xbox generation machine. MX started out I think with maybe just twice the performance of M2, but as M2 was delayed, the MX had more development time it seems. some version(s) of the MX had, or were to have embedded memory, with claims of 15-20 million polys/sec performance, according to Intelligent Gamer Fusion magazine in 1996. a different and later report, from Next Generation Online, in 1997 or 1998 said MX was in the 4 million pps range.

regardless of edram or no edram, the MX feature-set added hardware anti-aliasing (which was missing in M2 yet present in N64), clipping and maybe, anisotropic filtering. MX CPU was supposedly a PowerPC 604, or maybe twin 604s. that was before Nintendo almost got ahold of MX and tried to monkey around with it by having MX re-built around a MIPs CPU for the N2000 project.
 
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swaaye said:
I found some info about PowerPC 602. http://www.microprocessor.sscc.ru/powerpc-faq/ (use browser Find for 602).



It looks like it has half the L1 cache of a 603, and the SpecInt92 scores are lower than N64's 94 MHz VR4300 (R4300i) scores. SpecFP92 seems to be unrecorded anywhere. It has less than 1/3 the transistors of a 601, and is missing the branch processing unit but gains a load store unit.

PowerPC 602 was a non-superscalar PowerPC (only 1 instruction per cycle) that was created for embedded products. Today version is the PowerPC 405 or 440.
 
Urian said:
PowerPC 602 was a non-superscalar PowerPC (only 1 instruction per cycle) that was created for embedded products. Today version is the PowerPC 405 or 440.
Thanks for the info. That's what I was thinking after seeing the wonderful MIPS ratings in the mag. 1 MIPS per clock cycle.

I scanned the Model 3 Super GT article and that issue had another M2 game preview. Some more D2 screens, albeit tiny.
model3-supergt-1sm.jpg
ng-m2getsgames-1sm.jpg
 
I love this quote from the "World Champion Racing" article in the link.

One of the things you'll notice is that out tires are round. I mean they are round! We don't screw around with any other stuff. That are round!

Appartently they are round!
 
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interesting post from 1999 about WHY M2 never came out


http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.video.3do/msg/e44a0abde83a5f60?dmode=source

First of all, never believe anything you read in any videogame magazines
without some kind of confirmation (and other videogame magazines don't
count!). Most of the times, the people who write for these things:
1) Don't know what they are talking about and are just repeating specs they
THINK they heard. For example, multiple game magazines referred to the N64
as having a revolutionary rendering technique called MIT-mapping. It was
supposed to be MIP-mapping and it is a standard technique that has been
around for over a decade but somewhere it was misspelled and then every
magazine misspelled it after that (because the writers had no clue what it
was). They thought it was some new technology (invented by M.I.T.
perhaps?) and ran with it like so many media whores. The myth that was
"SGI graphics" is another one of these.
2) Repeat stuff they heard on the Internet and call it news. It was funny
watching magazines making up stuff about the internals of 3DO and the M2
when working there, because I knew they were wrong and had to wonder how
they came up with such bogus information. It made me wonder how much stuff
they got wrong about other companies.
3) When they don't know the answer to the reader's question, they will
make something up rather than say they don't know. My favorite example of
this was when a reader asked (I think it was in GameFan magazine) how Super
Metroid could be a 24Mbit cart when the SNES was a 16-bit system. The
"answer" the editor gave was "Well 16-bit systems can only address 16Mbit
of memory at a time but you can use bank-switching to address 24 Mbit or
more." If the editor had taken a basic computer course in High School, he
should have known the correct answer.

I'll admit magazines have gotten better over the past few years in terms of
technical info (probably due to getting swamped with email when they make
mistakes), but I still don't think they are quite as "connected" to the
inside of the industry as they claim to be. Experience has shown me
otherwise.

>
> I found most of an old game club newsletter that also contained the
> specs. However, part of these pages were aparently drowned in coffee a
> while back, and are difficult to read.
>

Since these didn't come from 3DO or Panasonic, what makes you think they
are accurate?

>
> CPU speed : 88 Mhz
> 1.4 Million Polygons Per second
>

Okay. The original 3DO specs were for a 66 Mhz PPC 602, the final M2 specs
were for two 66Mhz 602s. I don't know if Motorola/IBM ever made a faster
602.

>
> Memory : 16 Megs SDRAM. Plus internal NV RAM & Removable External Cards
> for game data.
>

The original 3DO specs were for 4MB of RAM, the final Panasonic specs were
for 8MB of SDRAM. The system could take up to 128MB RAM but that was never
going into a consumer unit (they were going up against a $150 N64,
remember?). Developer units had two times the final RAM (so that games can
be developed freely and then scaled back to the RAM footprint more
easily). So a final M2 developer unit would have had 16 MB of RAM but not
a consumer unit.

>
> Graphic : 640x480 resolution. Supports
> MPEG-1 & JPEG decompression.
>
> Sound: 66 Mhz DsP 32 channel.
> Supports MPEG audio
>
> Graphic Effects:
> Texture mapping
> MIP mapping at multiple levels.
> 3D Perspective Correction.
> Alpha Special Effects
> Multi level MIP Mapping
> Gourad Shading
> Other data is here, but it's really illegible.
>

These have never changed.


>
> DVD Rom Drive
> (editors note says : DVD Rom Drive proposed.
> Probably will not make final unit)

Not in the original consumer unit. Panasonic added this for the business
unit.

>
> Thats about all thats legible. Along with a list of about 10 games that
> were coming to the machine.
>
> 2 titles from Capcom (all I can read of that is (CAPCOM) at the end of
> it.)
> D2
> Madden
> Iron & Blood
> Clayfighter
> Rocket Sled (?? best I can make out)
>
> Sorry, but thats all I have at the moment. My Next Gens must be in
> storage. I rarely through a game mag away, even a bad one. Or in the
> case of this newsletter, a REALLY messed up one
>

The M2 did end up in two arcade machines by Konami. Fly Polystars (sort of
like Panzer Dragoon) and Battle Tryst (a fighting game).


>
> Certainly from what I've read though, the present M2 is watered down
> from what it was (or at least what it was touted to be).
>

Not at all. If anything the added the DVD-ROM (which wouldn't have been
available for the original M2 game console launch).

>
> Frankly though, I thought the processor was even faster (100 mhz+).
> Perhaps I need a memory upgrade. ha!
>

Yep. Maybe you saw 2x 66Mhz and turned that into 132Mhz?

>
> I'd still rather have seen the original M2 make the scene as a game
> machine.

Me too. BTW, the M2 didn't launch because it was too expensive. It was
very competitive price wise (the thing was made up of three chips plus RAM
plus glue so it wasn't expensive at all) but Panasonic got cold feet. They
believed Nintendo was going to dominate the market and they thought
bringing out a unit that was twice as powerful as the N64 (and a lot easier
to develop for) wasn't good enough. They didn't anticipate that cartridges
were going to really stunt the N64's growth. In hindsight, I can safely
say the M2 would have buried the N64 if Panasonic actually launched it.
The reasons are pretty simple. The dev system was dirt cheap and easy to
use (Sony released the Net Yarouze because it got some early info on the
M2's dev system which was essentially an M2 unit with an extra ROM and a
parallel port cable for the PC). A developer familiar with an API like
Glide would be right at home so ports of 3DFX games would be easy. The OS
made streaming a dream. Today I have trouble getting Windoze with a
PII-450 and a TNT card to do what I could on an M2 four years ago. Every
developer that used the final M2 system preferred it to any other console
for ease of development. Unfortunately, everything in the universe (or so
it seemed) conspired to keep the unit off the shelf. The main causes were:

1. Panasonic was overly worried about Nintendo. They couldn't see that
cartridges were going to doom that system to being a (relative) niche
market.
2. Trip Hawkins had a mid-life crisis and wanted to get out of the console
hardware business. He wanted to go back to what he believes he knows best-
games. Of course looking at some of the stinkers coming out of Studio (New
World and Cyclone excluded) you have to wonder. He basically told
Panasonic they would have to pay for any help with M2 (in addition to the
$100 million). Trip wouldn't be evangelizing the system anymore and 3DO
could theoretically nickel-and-dime Panasonic to death. After all, the
braintrust for the M2 was still at 3DO (before being amputated into
Cagent). Panasonic would have to put their faith in something they didn't
invent nor knew all that much about. For all they knew, there could have
been a fatal flaw in the system that wouldn't reveal itself until after
they spent a billion dollars on a launch.
3. The guy who was head of the Interactive Media division of Panasonic
(actually MEI) was retiring shortly after the time M2 was originally to
have launched. Only he could authorize the money (500 million to a billion
dollars) needed to launch the unit. He didn't want to commit his company
to such an expensive venture and then leave. So he didn't do it. His
successor inherited M2 and was reluctant to commit to it since it wasn't
"his baby". He was interested in MX but apparently he couldn't work out a
deal with Cagent (the M2 hardware group) for it. This was probably due to
an arrogant individual at Cagent who shall remain nameless who said "I
don't like MEI's table manners, so I don't want to deal with them." I
swear to God that I'm not making the last sentence up!

These are, I feel, the main reasons we never saw the M2. Scary isn't it?
It wasn't technology or costs or the market. It was key individuals that
deprived the world of a great game console. We often hear how an
individual can have a profound impact for good on the rest of the world (or
at least a large chunk of it). If it weren't for John Carmack, game
developers be doomed to using an inferior version of Direct3D for game
development instead of having a choice (Thanks, John!). Unfortunately, an
individual can bring an equally negative effect on the world. An
individual can undo the work of thousands of man-years with the stroke of
pen. Remember that when you work on a project. Don't let a few
individuals (if you can) undo what you and your fellow workers have slaved
months and years for.


Don't even get me started on how the M2/Sega deal fell through.
 
Thanks for the quote. I read the entire thing. Absolutely nuts how everything can go wrong like that when parts of the project are totally in the green. Would be a good case study! lol. Truly a bummer that the console never was given a chance.
 
BTW I never saw more in the "Mit mapping" thing than just a phonetical mis-spelling. Next Gen was dead on with the hardware of the other systems. Especially N64. I should post an early Ultra 64 look-at, the specs are higher than were finally released but very similar.
 
swaaye said:
BTW I never saw more in the "Mit mapping" thing than just a phonetical mis-spelling. Next Gen was dead on with the hardware of the other systems. Especially N64. I should post an early Ultra 64 look-at, the specs are higher than were finally released but very similar.


I agree. I think Next Generation was dead on accurate with their articles on the M2. they noted all of the hype and balanced that with the reality of what the machine was mostly likely capable of.

it was magazine like GameFan that had overblown (IMO) their own hype of M2.
 
swaaye said:
BTW I never saw more in the "Mit mapping" thing than just a phonetical mis-spelling. Next Gen was dead on with the hardware of the other systems. Especially N64. I should post an early Ultra 64 look-at, the specs are higher than were finally released but very similar.

Are you talking about the 105Mhz version?
 
swaaye said:
Thanks for the quote. I read the entire thing. Absolutely nuts how everything can go wrong like that when parts of the project are totally in the green. Would be a good case study! lol. Truly a bummer that the console never was given a chance.



welcome, I read that some years ago but had forgotten about it.

there's a ton of golden nuggets on the M2 and every gaming platform, released or unreleased, on usenet.
 
Urian said:
Are you talking about the 105Mhz version?
In May 1995, Next Generation published these specs for Ultra 64:
  • 64-bit R4200 or R4300 @ 105.8 MHz
  • 500 MB/s bandwidth
  • 64-bit RCP @ 80 MHz in "enhanced" mode
  • 320x224 - 1200x1200 res (up to HDTV std) in 24-bit color
  • 64-bit sound DSP @ 44.1 KHz - 64 channels (referring to the RSP as if it's a separate chip I imagine)
  • 100,000 realtime texture mapped poly/s
  • AA, ray tracing (LOL!!!), tri-linear mitt-mapped interpolation (heh heh), load management
Obviously Nintendo decided that yields at those clocks weren't going to get them their profit margin, so they cut it down a little. R4200 is way faster than NEC VR4300 though. I think.
 
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