3DMurk03 new cheats ?

RussSchultz said:
Heh. You guys should stop visiting so often to check on things to bitch about. ;)
I've tried, but I broke down this morning to see what he came up with to deal with it in his forums. :rolleyes: Man, are those guys SHEEP! :eek:

Never again! <Sayeth the Dig, again :rolleyes: >

BTW-Have a great weekend Rev, good to see ya got your priorities straight. ;)
 
diffMarkMurk.png
 
radar1200gs said:
The anisotropic tester utility used by several web sites including this one should make a very good candidate application for renaming.

The allegation is that nVidia's drivers alter anisotropic filtering when they detect 3DMark03.exe - what better way to test this?
Except that Xmas's program is OpenGL, right?

-FUDie
 
you can see it in the pictures that techreport provide. the bars on the biggest window are definitely blurrier on the unamed .exe, theres also a seam suggesting that they're dropping to bilinear. They might just be forcing to highperformance AF on recognition of the 3dmark exe since in the det fx drivers that reduces some of the mip levels and also reverts to almost bilinear filtering.
 
The anisotropic tester utility used by several web sites including this one should make a very good candidate application for renaming.

The anisotropy tester utility used by several web sites would be a very good target for another Nvidia driver cheat. You never know...
 
RussSchultz said:
You must have some privelege problems. I only see one item in your fairytale directory, also (even though on the outside, it says 7 items are inside)
Chalk up another typical snyde remark out of Russ.
 
micron said:
RussSchultz said:
You must have some privelege problems. I only see one item in your fairytale directory, also (even though on the outside, it says 7 items are inside)
Chalk up another typical snyde remark out of Russ.

Either I'm misunderstanding that comment, or you misunderstood what Russ said.
 
Humus said:
micron said:
RussSchultz said:
You must have some privelege problems. I only see one item in your fairytale directory, also (even though on the outside, it says 7 items are inside)
Chalk up another typical snyde remark out of Russ.

Either I'm misunderstanding that comment, or you misunderstood what Russ said.
"I only see one item in your fairytale directory" isnt a very nice thing to say to someone who is merely trying to participate and add to the topic of discussion....
 
micron said:
Humus said:
micron said:
RussSchultz said:
You must have some privelege problems. I only see one item in your fairytale directory, also (even though on the outside, it says 7 items are inside)
Chalk up another typical snyde remark out of Russ.

Either I'm misunderstanding that comment, or you misunderstood what Russ said.
"I only see one item in your fairytale directory" isnt a very nice thing to say to someone who is merely trying to participate and add to the topic of discussion....
He's referring to the "The Faerytale Adventure" folder in radar1200gs's Yahoo! folder.

Not everything posted by Russ should be taken as an insult ;) Unless I'm wrong. Russ?

-FUDie
 
Hmm...

As far as I understand, the benefit of aniso is by adding detail compared to basic bilinear and trilinear filtering, and increasing the number of texture subsamples represented in each pixel to reduce aliasing/crawling/error compared to infinite resolution rendering scaled down to screen resolution.

It is possible to simultaneously do less sampling work, but from a more detailed mip map than normal. This would result in an image that would look very similar, but would also have error, and aliasing that would be apparent when in motion.

This would be akin to turning up LOD while at the same time lowering aniso levels. There isn't a problem if a user wants to make that decision to increase performance, but there is something wrong with calling that aniso...the sampling isn't being done. It is similar to the ATI "128x" aniso modes, except ATI didn't call it 128x in their control panel like nVidia is calling this 8x in theirs.

The diffs would be highlighting the aliasing errors, which would be seen in motion. Refrast comparison wouldn't work here...only comparison to the hardware's own aniso algorithms.

They would show that it was deviating from the default behavior, with the impact on aliasing/error determined by other means...some sort of motion based evaluation would need to be used in conjunction with detail comparison to evaluate things.

The only way to do this now, that I know of, is to subjectively evaluate aliasing. This wouldn't necessarily be apparent in anything outside of the game test(s) in question, because we don't know how many layers the "3dmark03.exe" branch of driver behavior modification might have.

The issue here seems to be: when it detects something unique to 3dmark03.exe, it is doing one thing, and when that detection characteristic is changed,it is doing something else that adds more detail in some spots and lowers performance significantly. We don't have a tool that facilitates aniso comparison in conjunction with performance levels, and this seems to point out something simple like a special "bake" of mip map LOD + aniso levels that someone decided was close enough.

Actually, for "optimal" filtering settings in 3dmark03.exe, this would be a much more "gray" issue, except as far as Futuremark's application detection rules preclude its existence in any case. In fact, except for application detection, the differences in images wouldn't matter as long as some achievement of the minimum Futuremark "optimal" specifications are accomplished.
You could argue that it might never go "up to" the "Max Anisotropy - 4" that 3dmark03 defaults to, but that is only a problem if Futuremark defined that...it isn't clear to me that "Optimal" stipulates that (it, in fact, seems exactly like a mechanism to allow some leeway in aniso, which I think is quite defensible outside of the application detection problem).

Has this been tested with "anisotropic" selected instead of "optimal" and I just missed it? Remember, nvidia doesn't "happen" to have a label for "application preference" anymore, atleast AFAIK.

If it occurs based on application name detection with aniso being stated to be selected (whether by the application, or by the driver saying "application preference" and not following through), then any deviation from aniso defaults for the hardware is based on deception, because they are falsely representing the applicability of the similarity to aniso of the named degree. Sort of like the "Application" and "Balanced"/"Aggressive" bait and switch. They're violating the integrity of the labels "Aniso" and "4x" because it looks different in the exact same scene when the application detection is defeated. Very much like Quack, except Quake III didn't have clearly established rules against application detection for performance comparisons. :-? Could even be a bug, except all the other effort nVidia has demonstrated with targetting 3dmark03 performance boosts by changing behavior from what was asked for sort of makes that rather conclusively unlikely.

However, if it only occurs with "optimal" selected, and not "anisotropic filtering" selected from within 3dmark, then the image differences are secondary except as the user evaluates image quality, and it is the application detection that is the problem.

The same way "application" specific nVidia "adaptive" aniso could be bad if the "adaptivity" depends on nVidia testing for the application and putting assumptions in the driver, but doesn't tell the user that is what is going on. Unlike pixel shader output, the range of variation allowed before being "wrong and indefensible" is a lot wider, and the lower quality itself might be valid under certain circumstances...some more evaluation is required to see how far afoul of those circumstances nVidia is beyond the application detection problem.
 
mczak said:
I think this needs some more investigation. Remember, for instance it makes a difference if you choose aniso in 3dmark03 or force it in the driver (at least for ATI cards it's faster if it's forced in the driver). This is strange, and so far I haven't seen an explanation why this is the case, though it's possible 3dmark03 uses different mip-filters if you enable aniso (afaik it doesn't use trilinear for everything without aniso, but it might if you switch it on). That's however pure speculation, and I'd like to know what is really going on.
So I'd like to see some benchmark numbers and image differences between aniso 3dmark03 / aniso driver, both with 3dmark and 3dmurk (and also with an ATI card, I'd just like to know what's the difference if aniso is enabled in the driver or in 3dmark03 itself).

You seen the percentage difference I believe for that tiny amount its most likely due to slightly different code used when FORCING ansio and when just having it optionally enable in an application.
 
maybe 3dmark03's texture filter optimize only work on ati cards, so nvidia do same thing in their drivers?
 
micron said:
Humus said:
micron said:
RussSchultz said:
You must have some privelege problems. I only see one item in your fairytale directory, also (even though on the outside, it says 7 items are inside)
Chalk up another typical snyde remark out of Russ.

Either I'm misunderstanding that comment, or you misunderstood what Russ said.
"I only see one item in your fairytale directory" isnt a very nice thing to say to someone who is merely trying to participate and add to the topic of discussion....
Check the link the guy posted, look closely at all the directory names. Then come back and read my remark again. If its still reads like a snide comment, then *poke in the eye to you*.
 
Well it seems that Ati can do some "optimisations" on AF also accordinf to HFR. When you enable AF by 3DMark there's no change in the score, but you have a 10% increase when you do so by the drivers...

Côté ATI nous n'avons pas remarqué de différences selon le nom donné à l'exécutable, ce qui est plutôt logique étant donné la source de l'information. Par contre, il est intéressant de remarquer que lorsque l'on passe par le drivers pour forcer l'anisotropic 8x, les scores sont identiques quelques soient le réglage interne de 3DMark03. Plus inquiétant, on voit que les performances sont loin d'êtres identiques chez ATI lorsque l'on force l'anisotropic via l'application ou via les drivers, ce dernier mode étant près de 10% plus performant.
http://www.hardware.fr/news/lire/06-06-2003/
 
Two things-
1) I am going to have to side with NVIDIA on this one since the IQ is greatly diminished, nor even after close inspection can it even be discerned.

Also, the website that uncovered this didn't bother to provide a control for their data- which would have been a DIFF image of 3dmark/3dmurk without anisotropic filtering. The result of the DIFF does not look like any change to anisotropic filtering, but a global LOD bias difference, which is something I've pointed out since 3dmark2000 and NVIDIA cards. They have ALWAYS had a slight positive LOD shift when running 3dmarks and may simply be some driver key left in to try and keep benchmark scores somewhat on a level playing field (i.e. user might have their LOD bias cranked negative.). See my past history of dozens and dozens of 3dmark2000 screenshots clearly illustrating the brick texture LOD issues.

2) Doomtrooper- you continue to post webhit comparisons for HardOCP but you are failing to see the reason for the trend you keep reporting. HardOCP got a link from BluesNews so this is where the extra hits come from. A website touting nothing more than Gardening tips, if linked from BluesNews, would see their hits skyrocket like you keep showing on different forums. It has nothing to do with their own journalistic style or reporting- just the luck of getting a BluesNews link and nothing more.
 
What is the possibility of this optimisation being a relic of support for the GF4? Maybe the UDA is causing them problems now and the change either in LOD bias or AF isn't supposed to affect the GFFX but is there to make up for the GF4's weak performance in this area.
 
Sharkfood said:
Two things-
1) I am going to have to side with NVIDIA on this one since the IQ is greatly diminished, nor even after close inspection can it even be discerned.
I'd like to see more screenshots first.
Also, the website that uncovered this didn't bother to provide a control for their data- which would have been a DIFF image of 3dmark/3dmurk without anisotropic filtering. The result of the DIFF does not look like any change to anisotropic filtering, but a global LOD bias difference, which is something I've pointed out since 3dmark2000 and NVIDIA cards. They have ALWAYS had a slight positive LOD shift when running 3dmarks and may simply be some driver key left in to try and keep benchmark scores somewhat on a level playing field (i.e. user might have their LOD bias cranked negative.). See my past history of dozens and dozens of 3dmark2000 screenshots clearly illustrating the brick texture LOD issues.
First, end user benchmarks mean nothing. Second, a small change to LOD shouldn't cost you 20% of your benchmark result. Third, have you forgotten about NVIDIA's fake aniso and fake trilinear introduced with NV30? Maybe those get disabled when you rename the executable.

-FUDie
 
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