30 fps unplayable on OLED, alternatives?

Z

ZebMacahan

Regular
Hi

I dont know if this is the correct subforum, so please move the thread if this isnt the right place. This is for me a pretty big issue, and Im a little surprised I didnt read about it despite all the research I did before bying my TV, so I think it may be of help to others if the thread can stay here.

I bought my LGCX OLED about 1,5 years ago. I had done a lot of research, and many reviewers called it "gaming TV of the year". Great picture except for the banding, but I did notice I couldnt stand quality modes in games, and I thought I was just used to 60 fps now. But I played basicly all PS4 titles on my old plasma with no issues. I bought Callisto Protocol, and the quality mode looks so much better so I wanted to play in that mode, but it felt and looked alot worse than it should. I found out this is due to OLEDs very fast pixel response time which results in there being no blending between frames. This might be good for 60 fps titles, but makes 30 fps unplayable for me.

I suspect there will be a bigger difference between quality and perfomence modes in the future if Callisto is anything to go by. So are there any settings which might help, or should I get a different typ of TV if I want to play games in 30 fps?
 
You can turn on Soap Opera Effect (SoE) aka TruMotion for motion interpolation to your desired preference.
 
ZebMacahan said:
Hi

I dont know if this is the correct subforum, so please move the thread if this isnt the right place. This is for me a pretty big issue, and Im a little surprised I didnt read about it despite all the research I did before bying my TV, so I think it may be of help to others if the thread can stay here.

I bought my LGCX OLED about 1,5 years ago. I had done a lot of research, and many reviewers called it "gaming TV of the year". Great picture except for the banding, but I did notice I couldnt stand quality modes in games, and I thought I was just used to 60 fps now. But I played basicly all PS4 titles on my old plasma with no issues. I bought Callisto Protocol, and the quality mode looks so much better so I wanted to play in that mode, but it felt and looked alot worse than it should. I found out this is due to OLEDs very fast pixel response time which results in there being no blending between frames. This might be good for 60 fps titles, but makes 30 fps unplayable for me.

I suspect there will be a bigger difference between quality and perfomence modes in the future if Callisto is anything to go by. So are there any settings which might help, or should I get a different typ of TV if I want to play games in 30 fps?
Click to expand...

You could try enabling Black Frame Insertion. It will make the screen dimmer, however. Also, depending on how sensitive you are to any potential flickering that BFI introduces, you may or many not find it usable.

It's the persistence of pixels from frame to frame that's making it seem not so smooth combined with the low update intervals of 30 FPS. Basically quickly switching to the new pixel and then having it on screen for so long due to 30 FPS makes it appear less smooth. BFI breaks that up a bit by trying to replicate CRT behavior where phosphors fade to black before they get refreshed on the next scanline update.

Regards,
SB
 
Silent_Buddha said:
You could try enabling Black Frame Insertion. It will make the screen dimmer, however. Also, depending on how sensitive you are to any potential flickering that BFI introduces, you may or many not find it usable.

It's the persistence of pixels from frame to frame that's making it seem not so smooth combined with the low update intervals of 30 FPS. Basically quickly switching to the new pixel and then having it on screen for so long due to 30 FPS makes it appear less smooth. BFI breaks that up a bit by trying to replicate CRT behavior where phosphors fade to black before they get refreshed on the next scanline update.

Regards,
SB
Click to expand...

I´ve tried different settings, nothing really helps =/. I didnt notice much difference with BFI except for a dimmer image.

I havent played much 30 fps games (except forza) for like 1,5 years, but I dont remember them being this straining for my eyes and head =(
 
ZebMacahan said:
I´ve tried different settings, nothing really helps =/. I didnt notice much difference with BFI except for a dimmer image.

I havent played much 30 fps games (except forza) for like 1,5 years, but I dont remember them being this straining for my eyes and head =(
Click to expand...

It's just really REALLY hard to make 30 FPS not only look good, but more importantly look smooth when you are using sample and hold display technology like LCDs and OLEDs. You can make it look smoother (but never really smooth) by introducing more blur in the form of excessive motion blur, but then that makes it look less "good" (IMO).

Interestingly, lower quality displays (especially LCDs) can give the appearance of being "smoother" in motion at low framerates due to the lack of motion resolution once there is any movement (like moving the camera). It's like a full screen "blur" anytime there's motion. Of course, that comes at the expense of motion clarity as your effective resolution when the camera is moved drops drastically.

It's one of the reasons that while I'd actually consider coming back to consoles as long as all titles supported at least a 60 FPS mode, the fact that 30 FPS only games still exist means that it's not a serious contender for me.

Unfortunately for me, however, now that I've experienced gaming at 120 Hz, 60 Hz now looks stuttery and juddery when the camera moves. .../sigh. So, I really need to hope that HDMI 2.1 GPUs are more reasonably priced this generation. :(

Regards,
SB
 
Silent_Buddha said:
It's just really REALLY hard to make 30 FPS not only look good, but more importantly look smooth when you are using sample and hold display technology like LCDs and OLEDs. You can make it look smoother (but never really smooth) by introducing more blur in the form of excessive motion blur, but then that makes it look less "good" (IMO).

Interestingly, lower quality displays (especially LCDs) can give the appearance of being "smoother" in motion at low framerates due to the lack of motion resolution once there is any movement (like moving the camera). It's like a full screen "blur" anytime there's motion. Of course, that comes at the expense of motion clarity as your effective resolution when the camera is moved drops drastically.

It's one of the reasons that while I'd actually consider coming back to consoles as long as all titles supported at least a 60 FPS mode, the fact that 30 FPS only games still exist means that it's not a serious contender for me.

Unfortunately for me, however, now that I've experienced gaming at 120 Hz, 60 Hz now looks stuttery and juddery when the camera moves. .../sigh. So, I really need to hope that HDMI 2.1 GPUs are more reasonably priced this generation. :(

Regards,
SB
Click to expand...

How much better does 30 fps look on an LCD compared to an OLED? I had a plasma before I got my OLED.

Im considering buying a cheaper LCD screen for playing those games that need to be played in 30 fps.
 
Have you tried setting your xbox to 60hz? Having your frames refreshed only twice instead of 4 times (120hz) may perhaps improve things somewhat.
 
ZebMacahan said:
How much better does 30 fps look on an LCD compared to an OLED? I had a plasma before I got my OLED.

Im considering buying a cheaper LCD screen for playing those games that need to be played in 30 fps.
Click to expand...

IMO, it looks worse, but might look "smoother" in motion. IE - losing resolution in motion but since motion resolution is so much lower on an LCD, then it might end up looking smoother at lower framerates.

Before investing in a cheap LCD, if you know someone that has one try it on there first to see if it's an improvement or not. Personally, I really don't like the loss of resolution when things move on an LCD screen.

Regards,
SB
 
Silent_Buddha said:
It's just really REALLY hard to make 30 FPS not only look good, but more importantly look smooth when you are using sample and hold display technology like LCDs and OLEDs. You can make it look smoother (but never really smooth) by introducing more blur in the form of excessive motion blur, but then that makes it look less "good" (IMO).

Interestingly, lower quality displays (especially LCDs) can give the appearance of being "smoother" in motion at low framerates due to the lack of motion resolution once there is any movement (like moving the camera). It's like a full screen "blur" anytime there's motion. Of course, that comes at the expense of motion clarity as your effective resolution when the camera is moved drops drastically.

It's one of the reasons that while I'd actually consider coming back to consoles as long as all titles supported at least a 60 FPS mode, the fact that 30 FPS only games still exist means that it's not a serious contender for me.

Regards,
SB
Click to expand...

And if the console games has a 60FPS performance mode you may have to choose between 4k or 1080p, or ray-tracing. But PC gaming has its own inconveniences and problems that consoles don't have, like shader compilation stuttering. I feel like picking between console or gaming PC these days is like picking between plague or cholera.
 
The problem is just that the oled panel is so clear that you can see how much the image jumps from one frame to the next unless the game has extreme motion blur to hide it. It would be even worse with BFI, most likely because you'd lose the motion blur caused by sample and hold. 30 fps is just a stuttery mess. It's unfortunate it's survived this long. Panning at 30Hz is awful. I played through the PS360 era on a tv that probably had obscenely slow pixel response times that would blur one frame to the next with ghosting. Now that I have one of the faster LCD-based displays, even 60 fps looks quite bad without some motion blur to hide it. OLED is in another league.
 
Yup, it's bad.

Really shame LG adds quite bit of latency with motion interpolation. (And at least on b7 the quality is bad.)

Would love modes with optional crossfade to pixel response.
 
Silent_Buddha said:
IMO, it looks worse, but might look "smoother" in motion. IE - losing resolution in motion but since motion resolution is so much lower on an LCD, then it might end up looking smoother at lower framerates.

Before investing in a cheap LCD, if you know someone that has one try it on there first to see if it's an improvement or not. Personally, I really don't like the loss of resolution when things move on an LCD screen.

Regards,
SB
Click to expand...

We have my GFs old LCD in the bedroom. Gonna try that one. I watched when she played BOTW on that one, it felt like I remember PS4 games feeling.
 
What really surprise me is that despite doing extensive research before getting my LGCX I never heard about this. Many reviewers and sites awarded it gaming TV of the year. I guess its not a problem if you´re playing 60 fps games on PS5 and XSX, but a lot of people play on the Switch as well and this issue should be known to people before doing an investment like that.
 
Seems you guys might be right. It never bothered me, but I did sense it. It was normal for me. But I am actually much more sensitive with playing fighting games.
They are 60fps of course. But I do notice that something is different with how I perceive the motion/reading of the animations. With fighting games reading and fast reaction is paramount.
So when I play Tekken 7 on my OLED something just seems different. Surely it is smooth, but for whatever reason whenever I play Tekken for example on a PC monitor, the motion seems smoother and my enemy attacks are much easier for me to read. On my OLED it is like there are missing frames in comparison. I dont know how to explain it. It is smooth but not exactly.
So by the time my brain sees the beginning of the attack and tries to interpret it's final direction before it gets there, there is "missing" information between each frame and I miss the reading. So I find it more difficult to respond to some super fast attacks, which is super easy when I play the same game on a PC monitor, which for whatever reason seems smoother at 60fps than the same game running 60fps on my OLED

I guess OLED works too perfectly well for its own good.
 
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