1984

CosmoKramer

Newcomer
I know there are some of you here who are absolutely thrilled by this. You know who you are. :devilish:

I feel sorry for the rest of you americans (the sane ones without childhood issues) who like me find this frightening... :(

Link found at ArsTechnica:

http://defensetech.org/
 
If it could only find my keys when I need them...

Though, truthfully, it would be a neat tool for historical research--assuming that your information was absolutely and completely sealed until well after your death.

Sort of like a time travelling fly on the wall.

Of course, there's tremendous potential for misuse a la big brother, though it can only limit itself to my web transactions. Hmmm, the government is going to get a very skewed view of people: 15 year old girls that like chatting in private rooms, porn and video games.

Why couldn't they devote their research to something useful like getting rid of the spam. Or finding my keys.
 
I feel sorry for anyone who is so brainwashed to think this is actually something good.

Though I do agree it could be good for historical purposes, but I also agree that there are tons of other, more important, things that could have used this money instead.. like finding MY keys. ;)
 
Must count me out too. That's all we need is Big Brother all in our life. Hate to have someone come to me saying I took a crap too long because I wanted to read a little.
 
I can imagine a government official looking at the incoming e-mail results and issuing a press-release about how 100% of all americans are apparently interested in penial enlargement.
 
Ilfirin said:
I can imagine a government official looking at the incoming e-mail results and issuing a press-release about how 100% of all americans are apparently interested in penial enlargement.
HAHAH. That's too funny. I was thinking the same thing.
 
The mistake many liberal civil libertarians make is to focus on the collection of the data, instead of its use. The problem is, this data collection is inevitable (given the constraints of the socialists). As computing devices become more powerful, there is simply no way to stop anyone from recording data on you.

Already, digital cameras have been shrunk to the size of a pen. The idea that in ten years you will have any semblance of privacy IN PUBLIC (not in your bedroom) is ridiculous. Cameras will be everywhere, not government cameras, but cameras on all the people walking around you.

Moreover, why not have the cameras on all the time if you've got enough storage? TIVO for LIFE. Want to review that hot chick you saw early and show to a friend? Can't remember what some sign said? Want to go back and time and see what your first date was like? It is inevitable that people will want these augmented reality devices to enhance their own memory.

But this extends far beyond the realm of having your picture and movements taken. We've already seen it with email. If you've ever posted a message on the internet, or privately corresponded with anyone, and it wasn't anonymous, there is a chance something you said will one day come back to you. Lesson: Behave yourself. We cheer this when some paper trail evidence shows a politician or judge was involved in crooked transactions a few years ago. Supporting total information *UNAWARENESS* removes many of these capabilities.

Financial transactions? Every single dollar I transact is recorded in quicken. It's recorded at my bank (if check). At the credit bureaus if credit. Every single meeting or correspondance I've had, in my PIM archive.

Suffice to say, THE DATA WILL BE COLLECTED AND THERE IS NOTHING YOU CAN DO TO STOP IT.


The issue is not whether people have your entire history on file, they will, the issue is what they are legally allowed to do with it: what kinds of discrimination are possible? What kinds of activities is the government allowed to search for, what kinds of activities are commercial entities allowed to do, and what judicial restraints will they have.


The fundamental contradiction that leftwing nuts like Kramer have is that they complain about stuff like TIA data collection, but won't follow their opposition through consistently because it will conflict with their socialism. I bet Cosmo is happy with Gun Registration for example and having a database of everyone who owns weapons. Hell, he'd probably love to have a database of all CEOs private transactions.

My background is one of security and cryptography and I used to be a heavy participant in the cypherpunks group, whose philosophy is one of cryptoanarchy.

The antidote to data collection is strong pseudoanonymity, digitally untracable cash and credit, and encryption everywhere. This is all mathematically possible to do, and nearly impossible to break. Implemented widely, no one would ever be able to correlate any records on you. The only way it will work is if society standardizes on it though.

However, the logical conclusion is that the government would find it much harder, if even possible, to collect taxes and all economic activity would be unsnoopable by government. The court system would NEVER be able to subpeona any electronic evidence, and no wiretaps would ever work again, PERIOD. No one could trace any economic activity, so that if I do some work and get paid in digital cash, there is no way for the government to find out who paid who, how much, so they could tax them. IRS investigations wouldn't yield much, since all records are untraceable and encrypted, except for those we want them to see.


Cryptoanarchy is the ultimate expression of radical individualism and conflicts strongly with the goals of people in favor of "social" contracts. For example, drug/gun/porn manufacturer A obtains raw resources from vendor B using untracable transactions. Workers at A are paid using untraceable mechanisms. Distributers buy shipments from A using untraceable cash. Consumers buy guns/drugs/porn from distributer, and so on.

The government, if it wanted to "bust" these economic activities would have to conduct dosmetic spying on a scale never before seen using HUMINT. It would have to do traffic analysis and watch unmarked trucks leaving distribution points trying to figure out who is buying what which is much harder than the current TIA JUNIOR already in operation (FINCEN) and simply using the existing government organization databases (IRS, SEC, etc) all with voluntarily submitted data.


Cryptoanarchy basically removes SIGINT as a possibility and makes HUMINT that much harder.

But I suspect that people like Kramer aren't interested in toppling the tax system, allowing untraceable financial transactions (can't track rich people's wealth), or stopping handgun registration.

Their opposition is much more narrow: They don't want the government finding out what porno they watch on their pay per view records.
 
BTW, there is a course on cryptoanarchy taught at MIT

http://www.mit.edu/activities/libertarians/libertarians/Crypto/crypto.html

and here's the Cryptoanarchist Manifesto for those that are interested

A specter is haunting the modern world, the specter of crypto
anarchy.

Computer technology is on the verge of providing the ability for
individuals and groups to communicate and interact with each other
in a totally anonymous manner. Two persons may exchange
messages, conduct business, and negotiate electronic contracts
without ever knowing the True Name, or legal identity, of the other.
Interactions over networks will be untraceable, via extensive re-
routing of encrypted packets and tamper-proof boxes which
implement cryptographic protocols with nearly perfect assurance
against any tampering. Reputations will be of central importance, far
more important in dealings than even the credit ratings of today.
These developments will alter completely the nature of government
regulation, the ability to tax and control economic interactions, the
ability to keep information secret, and will even alter the nature of
trust and reputation.

The technology for this revolution--and it surely will be both a social
and economic revolution--has existed in theory for the past decade.
The methods are based upon public-key encryption, zero-knowledge
interactive proof systems, and various software protocols for
interaction, authentication, and verification. The focus has until now
been on academic conferences in Europe and the U.S., conferences
monitored closely by the National Security Agency. But only recently
have computer networks and personal computers attained sufficient
speed to make the ideas practically realizable. And the next ten
years will bring enough additional speed to make the ideas
economically feasible and essentially unstoppable. High-speed
networks, ISDN, tamper-proof boxes, smart cards, satellites, Ku-band
transmitters, multi-MIPS personal computers, and encryption chips
now under development will be some of the enabling technologies.

The State will of course try to slow or halt the spread of this
technology, citing national security concerns, use of the technology
by drug dealers and tax evaders, and fears of societal disintegration.
Many of these concerns will be valid; crypto anarchy will allow
national secrets to be trade freely and will allow illicit and stolen
materials to be traded. An anonymous computerized market will
even make possible abhorrent markets for assassinations and
extortion. Various criminal and foreign elements will be active users
of CryptoNet. But this will not halt the spread of crypto anarchy.

Just as the technology of printing altered and reduced the power of
medieval guilds and the social power structure, so too will
cryptologic methods fundamentally alter the nature of corporations
and of government interference in economic transactions. Combined
with emerging information markets, crypto anarchy will create a
liquid market for any and all material which can be put into words
and pictures. And just as a seemingly minor invention like barbed
wire made possible the fencing-off of vast ranches and farms, thus
altering forever the concepts of land and property rights in the
frontier West, so too will the seemingly minor discovery out of an
arcane branch of mathematics come to be the wire clippers which
dismantle the barbed wire around intellectual property.

Arise, you have nothing to lose but your barbed wire fences!


BTW, Al Qaeda is already showing how pseudoanonymity and cryptography (e.g. free webmail accounts + encryption + cybercafe) allows one to organization a global terror campaign without much SIGINT ability (unless you allow for the NSA being able to break that which is currently thoughy unbreakable by all). Most of the intercepts come because people make mistakes, forget to use encryption, use a stupidly weak key, accidently send in the clear one time, etc. Russians used to use the theoretically unbreakable one-time-pad system, but it got broken because incompetent Russians used the pad more than one time.
 
The fundamental contradiction that leftwing nuts like Kramer have is that they complain about stuff like TIA data collection, but won't follow their opposition through consistently because it will conflict with their socialism. I bet Cosmo is happy with Gun Registration for example and having a database of everyone who owns weapons. Hell, he'd probably love to have a database of all CEOs private transactions.iew records.

I'm sorry I don't fit in to your silly little world view as I am actually not a leftwinger. I'm a defender of personal freedom and human rights - the things your nation claims to be founded on.

You, on the other hand, perfectly fits the rightwing neo-fascist template 1A. Please don't reproduce.
 
But will it help me find my keys?

Anyways, along these lines, the mileu of Peter Hamilton (Reality Disfunction series) factors in this idea of augmented brainpower though 'neural nanonics'. I dig the idea. Mostly because I can't remember where I put my keys.

I'm not sure I dig the untraceable money thing, though. The Police need some way of tracing things if necessary. And it will make transparent accounting even more difficult--which isn't something I think is good for the world in general.
 
CosmoKramer said:
You, on the other hand, perfectly fits the rightwing neo-fascist template 1A. Please don't reproduce.

Cute, so I take it from your responce that stepping upto DemoCoder's intellectual stratum is prohibitive. Which is reasonable considering just how well his responce was articulated, very nice Democoder. Was an interesting read at the least, especially the MIT manifesto on CryptoAnarchy as I had no prior knowledge of this.
 
Cute, so I take it from your responce that stepping upto DemoCoder's intellectual stratum is prohibitive.

Not at all. It's just that it was all irrelevant. Why? Because the issue is not that there will be monitoring by various groups/individuals that potentialy could map our entire lives if coordinated.

Take it as a personal challenge to try and figure out what the issue is. I gave a hint above...

Furthermore, I don't think DC's post was such a milestone in intellectuality either since he threw stereotypes around like there was no tomorrow.
 
Well Kramer, playing Devil's Advocate, perhaps you can explain how someone possessing records of your PUBLIC TRANSACTIONS is a violation of (presumably you imagine) a fundamental right to privacy.

When you go to the store, to the bank, step on an airline, post an email to a message board, you are doing so in public, by transacting with public entities. Everything you do in public is public information, and TIA is intended to track public activity.

You yourself delve into hyperbole by bring up the 1984 scarecrow. In 1984, you had cameras and government listening devices in your own private property. I don't see TIA proposing this. And if tracking corporate accounting is good, why isn't some form of personal tracking good?



Perhaps you should meditate on why you believe privacy of public records is a fundamental human right. Leading "human rights" advocates like Richard Stallman, or David Brin do not believe in privacy. They believe in a world of pure openness where there are no secrets.

There is no conflict between a world of no secrets and a world of freedom. They can exist simultaneously. If anything, it would be a world of freedom, honesty, and integrity.


I do not believe you are a defender of human rights. And certainly, you are unfit for debate, by frequently resulting to ad-hominem (including starting out the thread that way) while presenting no argument at all.
 
DemoCoder said:
Cryptoanarchy basically removes SIGINT as a possibility

:oops:
You mean this wont work anymore?
Code:
kill(pid, SIGINT);
Will be hard for Unix nuts to take.
 
No, you'll need SIGKILL. And if that'd dont work, SIGTERM_WITH_EXTREME_PREJUDICE (yes, I know KILL trumps TERM, but SIGKILL_WITH_EXTREME_PREJUDICE doesn't sound as good)
 
Democoder

Public data has never been collected the way TIA proposes, then nobody really cared about this before. The potential capability of data collection, centralization and analysis is huge.

IMHO this "world of no secrets and a world of freedom" will be ilusory because will be unilateral and too idealistic. Let me remind you another idealistic thing: comunism.

In my capitalist point of view the human being is not prepared for any idealistic thing. Being more realistic TIA is about control and money.

Do you know how to cook a frog? Put him in a cold water and slowly heat it.

You can start make some "small" concessions and someday ...
 
pascal said:
Democoder

Public data has never been collected the way TIA proposes, then nobody really cared about this before. The potential capability of data collection, centralization and analysis is huge.

The public data is collected, it's just not aggregated. Credit reports, property holdings, IRS data, car registration, utilities, phone records, ISP records, INS records, toll road records (and other photos of your license plate tracked), medical records, and innumerable daily shots of you on security cameras everywhere. All TIA is proposing is to aggregate them. People are up in arms about it because the government is doing it, but today, your records are already bought and sold by marketing agencies and aggregated together. The fact is, you never had any privacy to begin with.



IMHO this "world of no secrets and a world of freedom" will be ilusory because will be unilateral and too idealistic. Let me remind you another idealistic thing: comunism.

Not saying I agree with it, I'm just making the point that privacy and freedom are orthogonal. Someone can have complete knowledge of your activities, but that in no way precludes you from doing anything you want, gathering with whomever you want, practicing whatever religion you want, making whatever speeches you want, and any other basic human right.

It is only when people USE such information to restrict your activities that freedom is impinged on, which is why we need laws restricting how law enforcement get get access to such information, rather than trying to stop collection, since it's impossible (unless you're willing to accept cryptoanarchy).

My other point was, so-called liberal ACLU types like Stallman and Brin are in fact opposed to privacy, do Kramer's claims do nothing to bolster his status as a defender of human rights.

In my capitalist point of view the human being is not prepared for any idealistic thing. Being more realistic TIA is about control and money.

No, more realistic, TIA is about people with a paranoid need for security. it would be about money if it was done in the private sector.


However, I may be against TIA now, but here's a basic problem we have in society and I don't know how to solve it:

Our ability to destroy is increasing at a much faster rate than our ability to protect. In just a few years, making weapons of mass destruction will be easily done at home just like people who write software viruses today. What will you do in 10-20 years when anyone can buy a DNA sequencer and do their own bio-weapons experimentation at home? Moreover, the knowledge to build weapons is rapidly transmitted over the internet. (See Bill Joy's manifesto about biotechnology and nanotechnology)

When a single individual can kill millions, at this point in our history, can we really trust people who are given the gift of full privacy? Is it a risk that's too big to take? It's one thing to argue security vs liberty, but will liberty matter of some teenager hacks up a virus and kills a few billion people? You have to be alive to taste liberty.

I simply don't know if at our stage of development, humans are responsible enough to handle the privileges of privacy. You may be opposed now, but the first time someone designers a custom WMD in private and kills a few hundred million people with it, you will be asking about whether we can have something like TIA and somehow maintain our civil liberties as well.
 
DemoCoder said:
The public data is collected, it's just not aggregated. Credit reports, property holdings, IRS data, car registration, utilities, phone records, ISP records, INS records, toll road records (and other photos of your license plate tracked), medical records, and innumerable daily shots of you on security cameras everywhere. All TIA is proposing is to aggregate them. People are up in arms about it because the government is doing it, but today, your records are already bought and sold by marketing agencies and aggregated together. The fact is, you never had any privacy to begin with.
The problem is, you're describing a situation that has already proceeded quite far. As you said, some of these things you list are public things and you can do nothing about it. But others should be private things, and in other countries than the US they are private things and it would be a crime to sell them to marketing agencies.


DemoCoder said:
IMHO this "world of no secrets and a world of freedom" will be ilusory because will be unilateral and too idealistic. Let me remind you another idealistic thing: comunism.

Not saying I agree with it, I'm just making the point that privacy and freedom are orthogonal. Someone can have complete knowledge of your activities, but that in no way precludes you from doing anything you want, gathering with whomever you want, practicing whatever religion you want, making whatever speeches you want, and any other basic human right.

It is only when people USE such information to restrict your activities that freedom is impinged on, which is why we need laws restricting how law enforcement get get access to such information, rather than trying to stop collection, since it's impossible (unless you're willing to accept cryptoanarchy).
In an ideal world, I would mostly agree with you. But such accumulated data can be abused easily, and I don't trust governments and institutions enough to find this acceptable. Also, my definition of freedom contains the right to choose who should know private things and who shouldn't.


However, I may be against TIA now, but here's a basic problem we have in society and I don't know how to solve it:

Our ability to destroy is increasing at a much faster rate than our ability to protect. In just a few years, making weapons of mass destruction will be easily done at home just like people who write software viruses today. What will you do in 10-20 years when anyone can buy a DNA sequencer and do their own bio-weapons experimentation at home? Moreover, the knowledge to build weapons is rapidly transmitted over the internet. (See Bill Joy's manifesto about biotechnology and nanotechnology)

When a single individual can kill millions, at this point in our history, can we really trust people who are given the gift of full privacy? Is it a risk that's too big to take? It's one thing to argue security vs liberty, but will liberty matter of some teenager hacks up a virus and kills a few billion people? You have to be alive to taste liberty.

I simply don't know if at our stage of development, humans are responsible enough to handle the privileges of privacy. You may be opposed now, but the first time someone designers a custom WMD in private and kills a few hundred million people with it, you will be asking about whether we can have something like TIA and somehow maintain our civil liberties as well.
This is a very valid concern. And it's hard to find an answer to it. IMO sacrificing privacy is something that has been done too easily over the last years. Doing something for security often means suppressing the majority for some actions of a tiny minority. And a little bit of "cryptoanarchy" will remain, no matter what you do.
 
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