Motorstorm, F1, GTHD - AA and HDR

[Neb]

Motorstorm has some of the best (HDR) lighting out there imo. Much better as a PGR3 for example (precision wise) as it is not so articificial oversaturated that you cannot see anything on screen anymore when coming out of a tunnel etc(which imo also is a problem among many 360 games using the built in low-precision FP10 HDR).

Well it has to do with fine tunning the HDr settings and Motorstorm has well configured HDr. But it is still low precision HDr (8Bit probably) and the sky light banding (an effect due to lower bit HDr precision) is the proof.
I actually seen the same sky lightning banding in a PC game, Armed Assault and it's due to their 8Bit HDr ( hack?) implementation. Setting it to 16Bit removes the sky banding (true HDr) but AA won't be available anymore for Nvidia users.

But i think i remember hearing some dev comments that they sacrificed AA for motion blur (both cannot be applied at the same time.

Motion-blur and AA can be taxing for the hardware fillrate wise.

 

[nAo]

"True HDR" makes my cry

 

[Neb]

"True HDR" makes my cry

Let's pretend I instead said 'HDr'! :smile:

 

[Darkon]

Of course, watch the video and look at the lightning!

Formula 1 review.
http://www.gametrailers.com/downloadnew.php?id=17617&type=wmv&f=

Perhaps you should recheck that trailer yourself, that’s HDR end of story.

Edit

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6324070&postcount=178

 

[AlNom]

First: It's "lighting" not lightning.

Thanks Mmmkay for your efforts. It's pretty clear there is 2xMSAA in the three images you've indicated. No AA would have result in purely solid stepping as shown in the first camera shot (can't AA rendertargets).

 

[Diesel2]

I am playing my PAL version of Motorstorm right now, and I can say that it is definitely employing some form of AA.

I know what AA less games are, and Motorstorm is not one of them.

As for HDR / Bloom, I think people get too caught up in the technical side of things, because Motorstorm has some of the best lighting I have seen in any game in any genre. I couldn't really care what they are employing, as the illusion (and that's what games are) they present is best in class.

 

[acaeus]

A little OT, but IMO the reason motorstorm looks so good is the animation, not the graphics per say.

 

[Todd33]

I popped in MS to take a look. 2x FSAA is very subtle in my experience, but MS does seem to use it. I looked at some high contrast edges when not in motion and the aliasing was not the over the top stair steps you would expect at 720P. Of course this isn't scientific, but it seems a game can do something low overhead like 2x FSAA if it's only 720P and 30 fps.

No pictures, I ran out of time.

 

[dskneo]

here

motorstorm:
http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2007/063/reviews/928393_20070305_screen044.jpg

 

[Obakan]

Maybe Motorstorm has 2xAA then I´m surprised, I thought PS3 games without AA looked like that. Makes me wonder how games without..............

 

[Neb]

Perhaps you should recheck that trailer yourself, that’s HDR end of story.

First, I wrote the following below in my initial post.

F1 has what seems to be 4xAA and the lightning seems to be non HDr.

As for the game, what I see when I watch the video is static lightning for cars and sorroundings. The lighting is the same no matter where the car is versus the lightsource. The only thing changing is the sky bright/dark eye focus effect that only affects the clouds/sun and not the whole image. :smile:

Here are some ss but to see the static lightning for cars and sorroundings one has to watch the video.
http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w193/NebulasPhotoPocket/PDVD_000-2.jpg
http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w193/NebulasPhotoPocket/PDVD_001-2.jpg
http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w193/NebulasPhotoPocket/PDVD_002-2.jpg
http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w193/NebulasPhotoPocket/PDVD_003-2.jpg

Video.
http://www.gametrailers.com/downloadnew.php?id=17617&type=wmv&f=

 

[Neb]

First: It's "lighting" not lightning.

Does it mean that I get an F grade in english grammar?

As for the MS no AA vs 2xAA I still stand with what I have said. But it might be as someone suggested on the previous page, that different tracks use different levels of AA (or perhaps it is dependant on nr# of cars on track). I tested only the canyon level (I think it is the same one as the demo) but of course I played the retail game.

As for the MS lighting then it still has clearly visible banding on the sky due to the low precision HDr (I'll post ss soon to show it).

To end it well I'll say let us agree to disagree!

 

[Todd33]

Maybe Motorstorm has 2xAA then I´m surprised, I thought PS3 games without AA looked like that. Makes me wonder how games without..............

The difference in 0x and 2x AA are pretty small, you can try switching in any PC game to see. Here are some Oblivion shots I found.

0x FSAA

2x FSAA

 

[Neb]

The difference in 0x and 2x AA are pretty small, you can try switching in any PC game to see. Here are some Oblivion shots I found.

0x FSAA

2x FSAA

It's up to the one viewing it but that is for me a big change. The 0xAA ss has the jaggies well definied and sharp which is bad. The 2xAA ss has the transition between the jaggies smoothed out but still not enough to hide the jaggies.:smile:

Edit: I might add that the difference is even more noticable when playing and moving the FOV arround.

 

[Todd33]

It's up to the one viewing it but that is for me a big change. The 0xAA ss has the jaggies well definied and sharp which is bad. The 2xAA ss has the transition between the jaggies smoothed out but still not enough to hide the jaggies.:smile:

But both have the "stair steps" at the edges (look at the columns) , but here you have an "A" and "B" to compare with. We don't have a Motorstorm with and without AA, so people are studying the game and some are concluding that is has minimal AA, 2x. Maybe it's adaptive like Forza 2.

 

[Neb]

But both have the "stair steps" at the edges (look at the columns)

Yes but in motion the difference is bigger and in ss it is smaller but still, look at the middle column!

As I said in my previous post, the no AA image has jaggies with hard edges, the 2xAA has the transition between the jaggies smoothed out but still not enough to hide them.

 

[Darkon]

First, I wrote the following below in my initial post.


As for the game, what I see when I watch the video is static lightning for cars and sorroundings. The lighting is the same no matter where the car is versus the lightsource. The only thing changing is the sky bright/dark eye focus effect that only affects the clouds/sun and not the whole image. :smile:

Here are some ss but to see the static lightning for cars and sorroundings one has to watch the video.
http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w193/NebulasPhotoPocket/PDVD_000-2.jpg
http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w193/NebulasPhotoPocket/PDVD_001-2.jpg
http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w193/NebulasPhotoPocket/PDVD_002-2.jpg
http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w193/NebulasPhotoPocket/PDVD_003-2.jpg

Video.
http://www.gametrailers.com/downloadnew.php?id=17617&type=wmv&f=

Did you miss this ?

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6324070&postcount=178

or intentionally ignored it

 

[Obakan]

For sure 2xAA looks far better than no AA, in motion especially. :smile:

 

[Neb]

Did you miss this ?

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6324070&postcount=178

or intentionally ignored it

Lol, read his whole post and don't forget the "there are so many ways to skin a cat..". A form of HDr perhaps but what is shown onscreen is far away from what would be called average HDr quality nowdays.
I have read several reviews of F1 where the reviewers complained about the weak lighting and I agree, end of story!

Car and sorroundings lighting is static whilst the sun has a bright/dark eye focus effect for the sun and clouds around the sun.

http://www.gametrailers.com/downloadnew.php?id=17617&type=wmv&f=

 

[nAo]

Nebula..just looking at single screenshots will not give you an answer: HDR rendering does not mean you're going to see shiny stuff everywhere, it just means High Dynamic Range rendering..if your scene pictures a rainy day or simply doesn't not have (for some reason) a wide luminance range you won't be ablet to tell the difference with some LDR rendering, especially cause you can't see exposure changing over time from a static screenshot