LAIR Thread - * Rules: post #469

[Shifty Geezer]

Dragons aren´t supposed to hover?

Being mythical, you could have them do whatever you want. Chinese dragons could happily hover in the sky. The dragons in Lair are, as the developers keep reiterating, very physical. They're big, fat monsters. They're heavy. If they want them to hover, they should have them flapping their wings to create some sort of lift. It doesn't need to be scientifically plausible, but it has to combat the notion that they are heavy lumps. In the clips, the dragon's slow to hardly any forward momentum, yet hold they're wings out like birds. No flying creature with mass can fly like that, so it looks wrong. Perhaps they could get away with it with the notion of huge air-currents they can hover on like birds of prey, but they'd need those forces to be in game, and to move the wings, and generally look like there's something holding them up.

It's a game that appears to have no (or very selective) gravity, which doesn't fit in well with the notion of these being very physical creatures.

 

[scooby_dooby]

Being mythical, you could have them do whatever you want. Chinese dragons could happily hover in the sky. The dragons in Lair are, as the developers keep reiterating, very physical. They're big, fat monsters. They're heavy. If they want them to hover, they should have them flapping their wings to create some sort of lift. It doesn't need to be scientifically plausible, but it has to combat the notion that they are heavy lumps. In the clips, the dragon's slow to hardly any forward momentum, yet hold they're wings out like birds. No flying creature with mass can fly like that, so it looks wrong. Perhaps they could get away with it with the notion of huge air-currents they can hover on like birds of prey, but they'd need those forces to be in game, and to move the wings, and generally look like there's something holding them up.

It's a game that appears to have no (or very selective) gravity, which doesn't fit in well with the notion of these being very physical creatures.

Shifty, don't you know that dragons can fly because of the giant gaseous deposits they have, which also enable them to blow fire?? Think giant hot-air ballon...

Sheesh!

 

[one]

Of course it can fly.

 

[patsu]

Re-watched the trailers (I skimmed through yesterday). I am very happy that the game is full of imagination. The lighthouse turns out bigger than I thought. I didn't think you can fly inside to wreck furnitures. Did they say anything about the weather system and day-light cycle ?

Laughed at the Creature Presentation video because under the "Ground Enemies" section, human is not listed. I was waiting to see how much damage they can cause a dragon (How many pokes to kill it ?). It seems that they are essentially food to replenish health (Earlier interview said dragons can regain a little life if they eat a human) at the tactical level, and the relative army strength will determine the outcome of the war strategically-speaking. So from both angles, they are like a resource ? The real fights will be between the larger animals.

I also saw a dragon turned its head and breathed fire at Rohn when he landed on its back ... which is good. Was a little concerned the maneuver will become stale and too predictable.

I also like duking it out with other dragons. It gives more depth to the gameplay. Lair will put SIXAXIS to the test. So far I like how flOw and Resistance use it. Not sure about this thing yet. Eager to try out this game to see how everything is put together for real.

Of course it can fly.

One of the presenters mentioned they had to reduce the wing size because it would cover a large part of the screen and affect gameplay. It sounds like these guys thought/worked through the game long enough to have the basic elements covered.

 

[ihamoitc2005]

Dragons

Shifty, don't you know that dragons can fly because of the giant gaseous deposits they have, which also enable them to blow fire?? Think giant hot-air ballon...

Sheesh!

You are correct my friend, Dragons can fly because of internal hydrogen gas storage. Also, dragon wings are evolution from mutation from parasite that makes original four limbed creature to have six limbs.

http://www.todaysthv.com/news/news.aspx?storyid=44294

 

[archangelmorph]

You are correct my friend, Dragons can fly because of internal hydrogen gas storage. Also, dragon wings are evolution from mutation from parasite that makes original four limbed creature to have six limbs.

http://www.todaysthv.com/news/news.aspx?storyid=44294

Hahahahahaha!

Ya'll are crazy!

 

[scooby_dooby]

I don't mind the hovering, I think maybe it's a tad unrealistic but is necessary for gameplay, you need that level of control.

What bugs me is the transitions when attacking, or dodging, like suddenly the dragon wil ljust warp to another part of the screen, or move 10x's faster than it does normally, seemed very jarring.

And also, when the dragon battles go into matrix mode, and they just float there upside down or sideways indefinately, they should polish that up alot.

 

[patsu]

What bugs me is the transitions when attacking, or dodging, like suddenly the dragon wil ljust warp to another part of the screen, or move 10x's faster than it does normally, seemed very jarring.

I wonder whether this has to do with the motion control scheme (e.g., What will happen if you fling SIXAXIS violently ?). For a thumbstick scheme, the movement is somewhat restricted. But I do get the same sense that the transition seems sudden in some cases.

And also, when the dragon battles go into matrix mode, and they just float there upside down or sideways indefinately, they should polish that up alot.

Which trailer is this ? Would like to see it. I only caught the part where the dragon ate the soldiers in slow-mo.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I don't mind the hovering, I think maybe it's a tad unrealistic but is necessary for gameplay, you need that level of control.
What bugs me is the transitions when attacking, or dodging, like suddenly the dragon wil ljust warp to another part of the screen, or move 10x's faster than it does normally, seemed very jarring.

This is actually the same thing as my complaint. The motion and dynamics are plain unrealistic. Ignoring the Hydrogen Balloon theory (which conveniently ignores the size of the hydrogen balloon needed to lift several tonnes of meat and bone into the air!), hovering is fine as long as the dragon looks like it's hovering. The actually dragon animations in this game are very lacking. They don't flap their wings to hover. They don't animate correctly when doing sideswipes. The slow-mo' dragon-on-dragon combat looks like wire combat in the moves -a dragon folding it's wings up like that will drop like a brick unless it has vertical momentum.

As a game wanting to portray dragons as large physical creatures, the essential aspect to that, the animation and momentum of a gargantuan animal, is missing, and destroys that illusion. Better to have correct, convincing flight dynamics and fireball everything, than have waggling of a controller to destroy scenery but floaty motion.

 

[Bohdy]

This is actually the same thing as my complaint. The motion and dynamics are plain unrealistic. Ignoring the Hydrogen Balloon theory (which conveniently ignores the size of the hydrogen balloon needed to lift several tonnes of meat and bone into the air!), hovering is fine as long as the dragon looks like it's hovering. The actually dragon animations in this game are very lacking. They don't flap their wings to hover. They don't animate correctly when doing sideswipes. The slow-mo' dragon-on-dragon combat looks like wire combat in the moves -a dragon folding it's wings up like that will drop like a brick unless it has vertical momentum.

Sorry to say, but you make up an elite contingent of probably 5 or so internet-dwellers who might actually care about such details regarding fictional creatures to that extent

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Doesn't matter if the creatures are fictional or not. The world's they inhabit are governed by the same sort of physics as our world, which makes them believable or not. Would it be convincing to have American Football players tackled, bounce off the ground, and float 8 foot in the air? To have cars run into people at 60 MPH, and the car bounce off the person with the person not even moving? To have a plane flying forwards turn to point upwards but still continue in the same heading, belly first? The whole pursuit of next-gen physics and animation has been to make things realistic, my mimicking the reality that we all know. A deviation from those realities, even in fantasy realms, destroys any believability. For some games that can be a basis of the game mechanics. For anything aiming for realism, it's just wrong!

 

[Bohdy]

I'm just saying that not many people will nitpick to that extent. Especially as there are any number of explanations of "how dragons work" which would make their behaviour in Lair more consistent.

 

[homy]

This is actually the same thing as my complaint. The motion and dynamics are plain unrealistic. Ignoring the Hydrogen Balloon theory (which conveniently ignores the size of the hydrogen balloon needed to lift several tonnes of meat and bone into the air!), hovering is fine as long as the dragon looks like it's hovering. The actually dragon animations in this game are very lacking. They don't flap their wings to hover. They don't animate correctly when doing sideswipes. The slow-mo' dragon-on-dragon combat looks like wire combat in the moves -a dragon folding it's wings up like that will drop like a brick unless it has vertical momentum.

As a game wanting to portray dragons as large physical creatures, the essential aspect to that, the animation and momentum of a gargantuan animal, is missing, and destroys that illusion. Better to have correct, convincing flight dynamics and fireball everything, than have waggling of a controller to destroy scenery but floaty motion.

I think you guys spend too much time on the forum and no time left for discovery channel. Lots of birds don't flap a lot when they fly. The dragons in the game do flap a lot. The dodging speed of the dragons is realistic too. Spend some time watching how seagulls hunt their preys.

 

[DuckThor Evil]

Spend some time watching how seagulls hunt their preys.

Well the mass of a seagull is a little bit less than what a dragon has, therefore a dragon can't fly/hover like a seagull.

 

[archangelmorph]

As a game wanting to portray dragons as large physical creatures, the essential aspect to that, the animation and momentum of a gargantuan animal, is missing, and destroys that illusion. Better to have correct, convincing flight dynamics and fireball everything, than have waggling of a controller to destroy scenery but floaty motion.

I disagree with this point entirely..

The purpose of the game first and formost is definitely not to portray "realistic dragons" nor is it a "realistic flight sim" but an air-based action game with dragons, whose primary mission is to be fun and engaging before everything else...

I would MUCH rather have the diverse action/combat mechanics these guys are gunning for with floaty motion (provided they can clean it up a bit and fix the camera transitions to make them less disorientating..) than "Star wars with dragons"..

Sure it needs work but there have been plenty of games which we're fun to play in terms of the mechanics and yet, with respect to the motion/animations/dynamics of characters/entities/enemies/actions, got away with alot worse than we see here..

 

[scooby_dooby]

Well the mass of a seagull is a little bit less than what a dragon has, therefore a dragon can't fly/hover like a seagull.

Seagulls aren't filled with helium

And aren't dragon's magical creatures?? Why can't it be some sort of magical, ultra bouyant gas??

 

[homy]

Well the mass of a seagull is a little bit less than what a dragon has, therefore a dragon can't fly/hover like a seagull.

So you accepted that it can fly like a seagull. What does it matter if it's heavier than a seagull, which is real creature not fictional?

 

[dobwal]

So you accepted that it can fly like a seagull. What does it matter if it's heavier than a seagull, which is real creature not fictional?

Because it would take hurricane strength winds to provide the amount lift necessary to suspend a dragon of several thousand pounds like a seagull.

I don't think Liar needs a near reality physic models for dragon flight since in reality dragons don't exist. However, there seems to be a lot of emphasis on the graphics at the expense of other aspects of gaming such as animation and physics. Ships that go down with one big explosion and cause a water ripple effect thats mimicks someone dropping a stone in a still pond painfully stand out.

 

[Bohdy]

Ships that go down with one big explosion and cause a water ripple effect thats mimicks someone dropping a stone in a still pond painfully stand out.

The ships are "packed with explosives", and I personally haven't seen the effect of something large exploding on deep water. Have you? That effect might be fairly accurately simulated for all I know.

 

[zed]

why even debate this, its a game its meant to be unrealistic, eg any FPS where the players can running along jumping 4 meters in the air every two steps, or has 1 health left == one arms blown off, 2 broken legs, one eye hanging out the socket. picks up a health pack + hes totally healed.
btw, helium as an noble gas doesnt readily burn.

yes i can see motion control being taylormade for a flying game, but ill post another thread about it