Xbox Business Update Podcast | Xbox Everywhere Direction Discussion

What will Xbox do

  • Player owned digital libraries now on cloud

    Votes: 3 23.1%
  • Multiplatform all exclusives to all platforms

    Votes: 3 23.1%
  • Multiplatform only select exclusive titles

    Votes: 8 61.5%
  • Surface hardware strategy

    Votes: 2 15.4%
  • 3rd party hardware strategy

    Votes: 2 15.4%
  • Mobile hardware strategy

    Votes: 1 7.7%
  • Slim Revision hardware strategy

    Votes: 1 7.7%
  • This will be a nothing burger

    Votes: 4 30.8%
  • *new* Xbox Games for Mobile Strategy

    Votes: 2 15.4%
  • *new* Executive leadership changes (ie: named leaders moves/exits/retires)

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    13
  • Poll closed .
It is not possible to infer accurate data from these, because the quantities delivered are not accurate to date. So yes, according to most sources, there are more than 30 million Series X/S sold on the market.

There is only one reliable data on how the two consoles currently perform compared to each other in periodic sales, and this is the data of Amazon's public best sellers. Currently, in the UK, both the X and the S are ahead of the PS in sales:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/bestsel...b6-e9cc-4f55-8f28-90de1e6bfd31&pf_rd_p=e40a6a

When in stock on US Amazon, the SX performs similarly to the PS. There is more demand for Xboxes than before, probably because of the recent and coming MS games and Gamepass.
The reason why Xbox outperformed PS recently on Amazon is because Xbox stock has been unusually low in recent times. In this install base thread you can see the details:


But I don't think Series consoles can be at 25 millions. It's way too low.
 
There is only one reliable data on how the two consoles currently perform compared to each other in periodic sales, and this is the data of Amazon's public best sellers. Currently, in the UK, both the X and the S are ahead of the PS in sales:
Reliable for what?? It tells you what is currently selling on Amazon and those figures are presumably correct. It tells you nothing about how many sold and so how many more/less a platform is selling, nothing about factors influencing those sales (no stock makes it hard to climb the list), and it says nothing about the long term install base. You can't even get an install base ratio from Amazon by comparing its sales of consoles because there aren't unit figures.

How does Series currently listing above PS on Amazon's UK sales help determine is there are or aren't more than 30 million Series consoles out there?
 
Historically, I'm pretty sure MS always gave shipped as their sold numbers, whereas Sony gave sell-through. That was on their sales reports anyhow, when they gave them.

Quick bit of investigation for discussion purposes...

XBS released Nov 2020
Sold 21M by June 2023
21M over 32 months is an average of 0.66M per month
Another 19 months at that rate would put XBS sales at 33M. However, we know sales have dropped, such as 48% drop YoY in January, and a 42% decline in July 2024.

Then found: https://www.tweaktown.com/news/1031...estimates-are-as-high-35-9-million/index.html
TL;DR: Microsoft has shipped at least 25 million Xbox Series consoles, but actual sell-in could have been as high as 35.9 million by the end of 2024.
In short, I don't think anyone knows! It's probably worth just calling XBS sales 'about 30 million'.
 
forcing GP on Steam OS, Playstation and Nintendo is not the pro consumer move you think it is. I dont even know how they could spin it.
I wasn't making a value judgment about it. Just saying that judges tearing down the walls around Sony's garden will be bad for Sony and good for MS if it happens.
 

Xbox boss Phil Spencer said he's "not trying to move [PS5 and PC] all over to Xbox anymore", acknowledging that players are "all so invested in where our games are", all he wants to do now is "allow more people to play" Xbox games on other systems.

More of the same, really.
 
I stick to steam on purpose because they are easily the most consumer friendly platform, and they simply work the best.

That's fine if you truly stick with Steam for that reason but people in this category aren't really going to be the issue.

What MS, or any competing platform, is going to need to contend with is the people who are tied to Steam either due to practical lockin issues (eg. my existing library and my social media presence is on Steam) and/or inherently mindshare locked into Steam (which can be related to the previous) especially to the extent they vehemently dislike other platforms and just equate PC gaming to Steam.

The idea that it's just equivalent platform functionality that will drive people to switch is basically a pipedream. Why would you switch and for instance just fragment your existing library?
 
I wasn't making a value judgment about it. Just saying that judges tearing down the walls around Sony's garden will be bad for Sony and good for MS if it happens.
I dont see anyone bringing such a lawsuit against Sony(and defacto Nintendo). Unless MS financed it and even then it would be an uphill battle considering there's other platforms like Steam OS, Windows, Linux, where consumers can experience certain titles. As well Sony is no where near the largest gaming publisher. So if we're really being honest there is almost no way GP is going onto a Nintendo device or Sony device. Even if MS gets out of the hw business and becomes a full on 3rd party developer(which is what I think they're doing tbh, Phil just cant tell the fans directly at the moment)
 
The actual source article and video of the latest Phil Spencer celebration of XboxEra reaching 250 Podcast episodes:

 
I think Phil gets games in a way that someone like Jim Ryan never did.

I get that people are worried about the 3rd party thing, but I think the multiplatform strategy increases the likelihood of Xbox surviving on a lower user base.
 

Based on data provided by each company, Sony commanded approximately 50% of the Big 3's combined revenues throughout calendar 2024.

• Sony/PlayStation - $30.8 billion
• Microsoft/Xbox - $22.7 billion
• Nintendo - $8 billion

I think we're in the earliest stages of MS becoming primarily a 3rd party developer

And why would they do that? According to Phil Spencer they still make most money from console users as they spent most and play most. I heard about how Xbox is dead they are dropping consoles and becoming Sega etc etc. If we focus on only consoles unit sold Nintendo should be on the first place with more than 150 mln consoles sold. Seems like they are doing more than fine.

 

Based on data provided by each company, Sony commanded approximately 50% of the Big 3's combined revenues throughout calendar 2024.

• Sony/PlayStation - $30.8 billion
• Microsoft/Xbox - $22.7 billion
• Nintendo - $8 billion



And why would they do that? According to Phil Spencer they still make most money from console users as they spent most and play most. I heard about how Xbox is dead they are dropping consoles and becoming Sega etc etc. If we focus on only consoles unit sold Nintendo should be on the first place with more than 150 mln consoles sold. Seems like they are doing more than fine.

Going down 40% year over year for multiple consecutive years on consoles sold with no end in sight isn't doing fine.

I can assure you that Microsoft would love to have their lucrative walled garden. To me and many others it doesn't make sense for Microsoft to abandon the concept of loss leading consoles when it's the majority of their revenue, but that's what's happening right now.

No more consoles sold at a loss=half of the consoles that they are selling right now, probably even worse. Numbers so low that if it doesn't support PC exe's developers would struggle to justify a port.

Is being the biggest publisher on earth more lucrative than being the third biggest console? Probably. It's just not very exciting, and it's a capitulation on all fronts.
 
Going down 40% year over year for multiple consecutive years on consoles sold with no end in sight isn't doing fine.

I can assure you that Microsoft would love to have their lucrative walled garden. To me and many others it doesn't make sense for Microsoft to abandon the concept of loss leading consoles when it's the majority of their revenue, but that's what's happening right now.

No more consoles sold at a loss=half of the consoles that they are selling right now, probably even worse. Numbers so low that if it doesn't support PC exe's developers would struggle to justify a port.

Is being the biggest publisher on earth more lucrative than being the third biggest console? Probably. It's just not very exciting, and it's a capitulation on all fronts.
The numbers says otherwise, Sony made 30 bln with 75 mln consoles sold and msft 20 with 30 mln consoles sold. Again Spencer said that huge portion of revenue comes from consoles, new connsole is already in the work. I dont see why they should abbandon it, becouse sony fanboys blowing the trumpet how xbox is dead?
 
The numbers says otherwise, Sony made 30 bln with 75 mln consoles sold and msft 20 with 30 mln consoles sold. Again Spencer said that huge portion of revenue comes from consoles, new connsole is already in the work. I dont see why they should abbandon it, becouse sony fanboys blowing the trumpet how xbox is dead?
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If you look at the data it becomes clear that what's happening is that they are growing through acquisitions, not by growing the Xbox platform.

They get Bethesda, they get a bump in revenue. They get Activision, they get a huge bump in revenue. Without those, the revenue situation would look a lot different.

Meanwhile you get Sony, where pretty much all their acquisitions have been losses so far (payed by playstation, not Sony), and they are still growing.

Also, I want to make a correction to what I said earlier. I don't think that the Xbox platform is the majority of Microsoft revenue. We don't have detailed data but we can make a guess.
 
The numbers says otherwise, Sony made 30 bln with 75 mln consoles sold and msft 20 with 30 mln consoles sold. Again Spencer said that huge portion of revenue comes from consoles, new connsole is already in the work. I dont see why they should abbandon it, becouse sony fanboys blowing the trumpet how xbox is dead?
MS messaging has been a disaster for a while and whatever they say is hardly believed anyway.
It just reflects internal indecisiveness about the right course.

Obviously Sony fanboys use this weakness but I don't really blame them. The opposite would happen if Sony would commit similar blunders.
 
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If you look at the data it becomes clear that what's happening is that they are growing through acquisitions, not by growing the Xbox platform.

They get Bethesda, they get a bump in revenue. They get Activision, they get a huge bump in revenue. Without those, the revenue situation would look a lot different.

Meanwhile you get Sony, where pretty much all their acquisitions have been losses so far (payed by playstation, not Sony), and they are still growing.

Also, I want to make a correction to what I said earlier. I don't think that the Xbox platform is the majority of Microsoft revenue. We don't have detailed data but we can make a guess.
Right so microsoft and Sony have diffrent strategy for staying profitable right? Where is the problem? They bought Zenimax and ABK to boost value of their services that they are profiting now from like GP.
 
Going down 40% year over year for multiple consecutive years on consoles sold with no end in sight isn't doing fine.

I can assure you that Microsoft would love to have their lucrative walled garden. To me and many others it doesn't make sense for Microsoft to abandon the concept of loss leading consoles when it's the majority of their revenue, but that's what's happening right now.

No more consoles sold at a loss=half of the consoles that they are selling right now, probably even worse. Numbers so low that if it doesn't support PC exe's developers would struggle to justify a port.

Is being the biggest publisher on earth more lucrative than being the third biggest console? Probably. It's just not very exciting, and it's a capitulation on all fronts.
I wouldn't say any of this would be necessarily 100% true. There are greater challenges here happening for the console industry above and beyond competition. There are some major challenges that the console market faces today that frankly despite the fact that Sony is the leader by far, they continue to follow in the footsteps of MS. And would go directly against your axiom here.

The first major challenge for console platforms is the hardware can no longer be sold for a loss. Typically they would sell hardware at a loss because the attach rate for software was high enough to make up for the loss in selling hardware. Today with F2P games, and with no requirement on for subscription to play free to play games, all you need is the console, and you can play games forever. And if the platform holder is taking a loss on hardware, well that's just going put you into the hole.

Second major challenge, the cost of consoles is going up, and this is largely due to the hitting the wall of progress, to continue to have more and more computation cost power, transistors, clock speed, memory amount, bandwidth, these are all things that in order for us to drive consumers to leave their existing hardware and move to next generation, it has to do these things better, unfortunately this continues to increase the price point beyond what the console market can afford, and now this compounds with the first point, more expensive hardware could have been subsidized, but it is no longer an answer.

Third major challenge, the vast majority of console owners are older males with lots of disposable income. They cited 45% of the population buying consoles were over 45 years of age. Unfortunately, let's be real, you're going to age out. They may have the money to spend on games, but they're also the most likely to stop playing. They need to get the audience of kids that when they originally built consoles, the vast majority of their users were actually between 12-24. Today those kids are on mobile devices and PCs.

So if you were Sony or MS, how are you going to realistically keep growing your business? Your 50% of your walled garden is attached to an aging population, the youth has grown up playing games on their mobile devices, they've grown up playing MTX titles and Roblox, Minecraft, Fortnite (UEFN) and all sorts of user generated content titles, effectively all F2P titles. The price of console hardware is going up. Free to play games has basically destroyed your software attached rate.

It's easy to criticize MS on what they're doing, but what exactly is Sony doing here, to address the upcoming challenges? Can they really just sit around and hope people will keep buying into their walled garden generation after generation? Is there some sort of revolution in silicon that's coming along that will double or triple the power while keeping the price point the same or lower? Do they have an answer against F2P titles?

When the PS6 generation comes, what will cause people to move over to PS6, when the current generation of consoles are perfectly useful at playing every single F2P title today? Who cares about hardware revenue numbers if no one is buying software. And that's what this is coming down to for MS. They are losing money on every single console they sell. MS aren't a hardware company, they don't want to enter a business of selling hardware for profit. They are a software company, they want to make money selling software. That's very different from Sony who is a hardware company, and they are very comfortable making money selling hardware..

By putting everything on PS, MS don't take a loss on hardware, they get 70% profit, and their games get much more exposure because most people were ignoring xbox titles because it wasn't coming to playstation.

I guess I question is, do you really believe that MS is behaving this way because they're losing? Or because the industry is charting towards a path of unsustainability and drastic changes are required in the platform strategy? The fact that Sony continues to follow in the footsteps of MS, should tell you despite it being somewhere in the middle of that spectrum, it's likely weighted in the latter.
 
Right so microsoft and Sony have diffrent strategy for staying profitable right? Where is the problem? They bought Zenimax and ABK to boost value of their services that they are profiting now from like GP.
But when we are talking about the console platform (Xbox console, store, services, accessories) you can see why Microsoft is moving focus away from competing with other platforms to what they are doing now.

If console sales are down, game pass isn't meeting projections and the platform isn't growing what do you do? They needed to convince the CEO to wait a couple of years for the next console-next plan, but they couldn't. And so now Xbox has and will change completely.
 
Right so microsoft and Sony have diffrent strategy for staying profitable right? Where is the problem? They bought Zenimax and ABK to boost value of their services that they are profiting now from like GP.
Except we don't know how/if they are profiting! We only have revenue, not profits.

I kinda feel this discussion has become rather cyclic and redundant. MS are clearly changing their approach away from the traditional model - no arguments from anyone there. That's where this thread started and now it's confirmed (and not a nothing burger!). That's a business decision to drive profitability. Some people will be okay with that, and some not because they like the idea of a stronger traditional XBox console model; pretty sure everyone who has a preference has already expressed it. Whether it's a good business choice or not, we might never actually know. Without knowing how much MS's endeavours cost, we don't know how they compare to Nintendo and Sony. As a publisher, we can't even compare them to the likes of EA (~10% profit on revenue) because MS have a subscription service.

Obviously for business people who care about share values, growth and whatnot, there's a discussion about MS as a business and gaming as a division, but that isn't really a discussion for B3D IMO as it has little to do with gaming beyond that pastime adding numbers to their ledger. I'm not sure there's any insights to be had in consoles as a gaming platform from MS any more. Prior discussion about revenue being obfuscated by ABK is rendered redundant now we have hardware figures that tell us HW sales are greatly reduced. How subs affect revenue versus sales is still a relevant point to understand the market and how well the subscription model is doing, but unless MS break that out we can only guess.

The future of MS gaming discussion lies in trying to determine how many user they have on their services on what platforms, and what the quality of their games output is like. Discussion on XB hardware can exist so long as they release machines. This discussions are better held elsewhere than a mammoth 'MS Anything' thread that originally was just looking at whether MS would bring all their games to consoles or not, which is now a done deal.
 
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