Value of consoles versus PC, post PS5Pro edition *spawn
- Thread starter Nesh
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what do you mean by the smartphones replacing the keyboard? As of late I got used to play with a controller but I prefer kb+m for most games. Some of my favourites genres are Tower Defense games -those are okay without a keyboard but a mouse is irreplaceable though those games are usually playable on a gamepad), RTS games, and turn-based RPGs. Although I play a bit of everything.For me, the PC keyboard is already considered an outdated thing since smartphones have been around.
I know that PC gaming has become simpler in recent years. However, no matter how incredible it is, an average person who just wants to play the game still complains if an update window pops up out of nowhere on the screen from time to time and he has to choose what and how... Many people don't understand this, and many people just want to play, which the console interface always does better will be able to provide.
Regardless, I wrote in another topic today that the console will probably be merged with the PC in the future. However, there will also be a console simplified interface with simplified functions if someone just wants to play.
Can you just use the phone to replace the Up key of the keyboard when playing FPS games or similar where you just press up and turn your character with the mouse? What about creating groups of units in RTS games and numbering them?
Gotta agree with you that console gaming and PC gaming are merging as of late. My gaming mouse is compatible with consoles. I wonder if I could use it on games like CoD on consoles.
You can type as fast on a smart phone as you can on a keyboard? Or control an FPS as well on a smart phone as you can with a mouse and keyboard?
The beauty of PC is options. If you like Keyboard and mouse for playing games, you can use it (it's it really is better for some genres), but if you prefer control pads, you can use an Xbox pad, a PS5 pad, or any number of 3rd party peripherals.
Understandable. But this literally. doesn't. happen. Game updates happen silently in the background just like on console. Windows updates download themselves silently in the background and won't install until the user actively selects the installation, usually as part of the regular shut down process. Driver updates (relevant only to GPU's these days) can also download themselves silently in the background and simply sit there waiting until the user goes into GeForce experience to install them.
I love statements like this.... oh goody, time to break out the Steam Hardware survey results againEven if we ignore those GPU's that are roughly on par with the Pro (high end laptop GPU's, high end RDNA2 parts, 3070 level Ampere parts), we get the following breakdown of GPU's that will clearly outperform it. So you claim if will perform better than 99% of people posting on this, a hardcore gaming technology enthusiasts forum where half the posters are sporting 4090's? Well here is how the average Steam gamer would fare against the pro....
NVIDIA GeForce RTX 4070 NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3080 NVIDIA GeForce RTX 4070 Ti NVIDIA GeForce RTX 4070 SUPER NVIDIA GeForce RTX 4090 NVIDIA GeForce RTX 4080 NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3080 Ti NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3090 NVIDIA GeForce RTX 4080 SUPER NVIDIA GeForce RTX 4070 Ti SUPER AMD Radeon RX 7900 XTX
That's near enough 11% of all Steam running PC's featuring a GPU that will clearly outperform the Pro. Or close to 15 million PC's (using active Steam accounts alone).
Put another way that's around 25% of the PS5's current install base... 3 months before the Pro even launches. And we're on the cusp on a new generation of GPU releases that will greatly accelerate that trend.
It's doubtful the Pro will ever hit 15 million units in it's lifetime (PS4 Pro hit about 14.5m and analysts are expecting around 13m by 2029 for the PS5 Pro) and yet there are already that many PC's out in the wild (at least) that clearly exceed it. How many more will there be by 2029 - 3 GPU generations from now?
So lets not make out that the Pro is going to make PC's that can out perform it seem like some insignificant niche market. It's actually quite the opposite.
None of the GPUs you listed will run modern PS5 game without compilation stutters, not even taking into account PS5 Pro that is
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By this standard PS4 will beat a 4090 so that’s a bit silly. Well made games that precompile shaders do not have this problem.
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I would love to see these ‘pop up updates’ that literally interrupt your gameplay. I don’t think I’ve seen that since Win10, since Game Mode disables all notifications.For me, the PC keyboard is already considered an outdated thing since smartphones have been around.
I know that PC gaming has become simpler in recent years. However, no matter how incredible it is, an average person who just wants to play the game still complains if an update window pops up out of nowhere on the screen from time to time and he has to choose what and how... Many people don't understand this, and many people just want to play, which the console interface always does better will be able to provide.
Regardless, I wrote in another topic today that the console will probably be merged with the PC in the future. However, there will also be a console simplified interface with simplified functions if someone just wants to play.
Define "modern PS5 game". Most actual ports of PS5 exclusives suffer no shader compilation stutter on PC. Sackboy was one very egregious example at launch but this was caused by a development issue which was resolved via a patch within days of launch.
UE5 is also much better at handling comp stutter than UE4 was and so the actual "modern" games based on that newer engine, or indeed custom engines are far less susceptible to it than older games built on UE4.
I realise that "but PC has compilation stutter which makes it automatically worse than consoles as a gaming machine" is the last recourse argument when all others have been exhausted, but as a non-PC gamer do you even know what it is and how it impacts gameplay? We are talking the occasional micro stutter in a sub set of poorly developed games that presents very similarly to traversal stutter on consoles. Some PC gamers complain about this so much because with very expensive hardware delivering a "premium" experience they expect perfection, and that's perfectly fine, but it's not something that even remotely makes a 4090 level experience worse overall than the same game running on say a PS5 outside of the absolute worst corner cases (e.g. Calisto Protocol before the post launch patches). In many cases compilation stutter isn't even noticeable if frame rates are limited on the PC side to console levels. It shows up more at high frame rates because the difference between the average and the drop is much larger.
PS5 Pro Equivalent PC Would Cost Way More Than $700, Says Tech Expert - PlayStation LifeStyle
A tech expert has finally settled the PS5 Pro vs PC cost debate, stressing that a PC equivalent to the console would cost way more.www.playstationlifestyle.net
I don't see anyone arguing that you can build a brand new PC with the same performance as the PS5 Pro at the same cost. Given the significant additional utility and lower long term costs of a PC it would be pretty horrendous if you could.
But these arguments completely ignore the fact that the primary market for the PS5 Pro is going to be people upgrading from a previous console. Likely the PS5, but to a lesser extent the PS4.
So we should be primarily comparing not to the cost of a brand new PC, but to the cost of upgrading an existing PC.
And if we look at the Steam hardware survey again we see that at least 50% of monthly active users (so 50% of 135m, or around 67.5m) feature a CPU that is comparable to or superior to the Pro CPU. So that's a market larger than the current PS5 install base which with a simple GPU upgrade could likely exceed the Pro's performance. A 4070S can be picked up for $599. And the 5xxx series/RDNA4 equivalents which the Pro will really be competing with will likely be cheaper and/or faster again.
You are saying nobody notices it and only a very small subset of games might exhibit it,
But chose 10 random AA games released in the past 4 years and I will show you they have it
In that case does the PC reboot without warning to install updates during gameplay or is that cancelled as well?
In such comparisons, there are lots of different comparisons that can be made that give a different look at things, not only one.
That comparison is "how many PS5 Pros can we expect versus similarly capable PCs." That's a valid consideration. You want to know size of PC market capable of running at that level compared to size of console market.
Another one, the one the 'article' was addressing, is "is it better value for PS5 owners to move to PC?" That needs to look at cost of a PS5 owner to move to a PS5 Pro level machine. completely different questions, completely different comparison, no less valid than others.
With consoles we have 3 configurations; PS5, Xbox Series X, Xbox Series S. This means amount of RAM, GPU RAM, GPU speed, OS, and so on
On PC we have 1000s of configurations; use your imagination.
Does developing for PC require 1000 the amount of time? No it does not. Developers just give access to the settings, and define the limits of the sliders, whereas on consoles they move some sliders around until they have a 30/40fps mode, something around 60 and maybe an unlimited mode as well.
“Use highest detail at 3 meter, 5 meter, 10, meter, 50 meter or 100 meter” this is basically it; but they maybe call it low, medium, high, ultra and extreme. On PC you get to choose and you can even remove the limit and for example completely tank your 4090ti framerate and fill the 24GB RAM or whatever it has.
PS5 pro just means that they try the ray tracing at a higher setting which already exists for PC anyway, and maybe try lower resolutions and compare the upscaling clarity and decide on the base resolution, all in all it would take less than a single week for 1 person to create a “PS5 pro-port”, if a PS5 version and PC version already exists
If anybody claims different then they would agree that PC ports take thousands of hours and hundreds of developers (they don’t )
On PC we have 1000s of configurations; use your imagination.
Does developing for PC require 1000 the amount of time? No it does not. Developers just give access to the settings, and define the limits of the sliders, whereas on consoles they move some sliders around until they have a 30/40fps mode, something around 60 and maybe an unlimited mode as well.
“Use highest detail at 3 meter, 5 meter, 10, meter, 50 meter or 100 meter” this is basically it; but they maybe call it low, medium, high, ultra and extreme. On PC you get to choose and you can even remove the limit and for example completely tank your 4090ti framerate and fill the 24GB RAM or whatever it has.
PS5 pro just means that they try the ray tracing at a higher setting which already exists for PC anyway, and maybe try lower resolutions and compare the upscaling clarity and decide on the base resolution, all in all it would take less than a single week for 1 person to create a “PS5 pro-port”, if a PS5 version and PC version already exists
If anybody claims different then they would agree that PC ports take thousands of hours and hundreds of developers (they don’t )
PC Restarts While Gaming? Try These 8 Fixes
We primarily choose to game on a PC because of the added benefits like performance boost, and the range of user-control options. But at times it can be
www.technewstoday.com
You strike me as the type of person that always claims your pc runs everything at 100+ fps ultra, but in reality you have most of the settings on medium or low (“they make any difference so I turn them off!” Whereas your fps runs at 50-70 with drops into the low 10s and 20s
Since it is always possible to find someone on the internet complaining about any given thing this would obviously be a fruitless endeavour. Simply running a game - any game - at settings beyond those which your PC is cable of will result in all kinds of performance issues, so me naming a game, and you finding some idiot who tried to run it at 4K with max ray tracing on an RTX2060 resulting in tons of stutter isn't going to prove anything.
As far as I'm concerned there is only one truly reliable source for diagnosing shader comp stutter on the PC (vs traversal stutter, camera issues or more general performance issues) and that's Digital Foundry. Where it exists, they call it out. The question here is now much of an impact does a minor occasional stutter have on the overall game presentation.
You would seemingly make this out to be a crippling issue in basically every PC game which is simply a wild exaggeration that doesn't reflect the reality.
Case in point....
PC Restarts While Gaming? Try These 8 Fixes
We primarily choose to game on a PC because of the added benefits like performance boost, and the range of user-control options. But at times it can be
You strike me as the type of person that always claims your pc runs everything at 100+ fps ultra, but in reality you have most of the settings on medium or low (“they make any difference so I turn them off!” Whereas your fps runs at 50-70 with drops into the low 10s and 20s
Oh look, consoles randomly start rebooting themselves after updates
Obviously this doesn't represent normal console behaviour just as your link doesn't represent normal PC behaviours. The article itself points out that there is likely some kind of hardware fault if the PC is rebooting itself randomly - which is something consoles could also be exposed to.
Perfectly expected since the API/optimization advantage is gone!
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I don't disagree. But I do feel it's important to present both sides of the argument. What we often see are claims of how expensive/poor value PC gaming is by comparing the cost of a new console to a brand new PC without acknowledging that PC's are modular and upgradeable (unlike consoles).
Obviously what option is available to what person depends on their individual circumstances, but having both options presented is important. I'd also argue that even if you are brand new to PC gaming, the upgrade cost is still important to know, because while it may not be relevant to this purchasing cycle, it will be to the next one, and the one after that etc... i.e. the cost of entry to PC gaming is certainly higher, but the long term costs are much more comparable. That's an important consideration for anyone that might currently be considering moving from console to PC instead of getting a Pro.
Hmmm. In my experience here, decades of discussion have always said just that. PC's cost more but are better value and a GPU upgrade is often enough to advance to the next gen.
The interest in this discussion being repeated is that it looks like consoles are reducing in value. Meanwhile, PC GPUs have become bonkers expensive.
That depends on what needs to be upgraded in 7+ years. Is it enough to just swap out to a new GPU, or will you need a whole mobo + CPU + GPU? Plus RAM? Plus PSU?
Absolutely, but the cost is still likely to be lower overall than an outright brand new purchase. I.e. you're unlikely to need to purchase a new Windows license, case, keyboard/mouse, controller etc...
I'd agree unless you're upgrading along the way then an upgrade to match a new full console generation is going to be a big one, but then the subsequent midngen upgrade is generally going to be more modest - assuming there is another generation of mid gen consoles after this one. So the long term average trend is still much lower than for example comparing to the cost of a brand new PC at the launch of every new console cycle.
Well. It depends. Sometimes a newer CPU is needed too. Newer CPUs may require newer motherboards too with the appropriate sockets. Usually RAM was a guaranteed required upgrade too.
So it may depend when the PC was purchased or upgraded. For some it will be very costly to upgrade, for some not so much
This is true, but as I noted above, the average, especially over the long term is always going to be lower than purchasing a new PC outright with each new console generation.