Value of consoles versus PC, post PS5Pro edition *spawn

[Cappuccino]

And that is the crux of the problem. There is really no point.

I’d like someone to explain why the background store actually matters.

A reason why steamdeck is so popular is not only the portability, but the fact that you don’t need to deal with windows.

That is worth more than having to deal with PS3 equivalent settings for modern games

Steam Deck is popular for a handheld but is a rounding error compared to the amount of people that use Windows for gaming.

 

[Cappuccino]

Another issue with PC gaming is the cheating in multiplayer games. It's bad enough on consoles with cronus/xim type of devices and lag manipulation but on PC it's on a complete different level. On top of that you can't avoid the clash between m/kb and gamepad players.

This is a reality on console too, almost every multiplayer game has cross play on by default and turning it off means waiting way longer for a game. On top of that, you can now plug a keyboard and mouse into a console, so it’s not even like you get input parity anymore.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

This is a reality on console too, almost every multiplayer game has cross play on by default and turning it off means waiting way longer for a game. On top of that, you can now plug a keyboard and mouse into a console, so it’s not even like you get input parity anymore.

There's still a world of difference between the cheats on console - people using input macros etc - and the downright hacks on PC. So long as your game supports console only, cross-platform being isolated, you have a much better player experience. If gaming is to go PC only, we need hardware banning as an option to fix cheats.

 

[Nisaaru]

This is a reality on console too, almost every multiplayer game has cross play on by default and turning it off means waiting way longer for a game. On top of that, you can now plug a keyboard and mouse into a console, so it’s not even like you get input parity anymore.

In Destiny "officially" you should not meet people using KB/M in *PvP* where it matters.

Obviously that's not the case with XIM/Cronus but they can at least ban them if they are detected from the game or if the console companies really would invest some effort in only allowing encrypted gamepad connections could be stopped.

On PC they are the norm and you can't really avoid them.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Curiously Sony blocked cheat controllers but they found a workaround. Ultimately is there really any way to stop controller spoofing? A huge advantage with consoles is even if cheating is tricky to identify (and let's be honest, it's easy to see these cheats in game with impossible movements!), once found you can ban them outright. PC just involves creating a new account, particularly obnoxious in F2P games.

 

[Davros]

but they can at least ban them if they are detected from the game

Woah, you want to ban people for using a keyboard and mouse ?

 

[arandomguy]

Woah, you want to ban people for using a keyboard and mouse ?

KB/M against controllers is a huge competitive advantage. XIM/Cronus is an adapter that allows KB/M support for console games that choose not to officially support KB/M for competitive parity, it's essentially no different than a cheat/hack.

 

[Nisaaru]

Woah, you want to ban people for using a keyboard and mouse ?

In PvP games on consoles, sure. They deserve the ban hammer and that the message sticks I also support public tarring and feathering

 

[Boss]

It absolutely does if you limit yourself to games that work natively in Steam which amounts to the overwhelming majority of PC games and a library that is still many times the size of the largest single console library.

And why would I do that? Part of the whole point of playing on pc is finding deals where ever they may be and often times, that's not steam.

Because replacing individual parts can be:

a. Cheaper
b. Allow the opportunity to upgrade that individual part over what was previously in the system

Both the diagnoses and replacement can be outsourced to a 3rd party if the end user doesn't have the requisite knowledge to it themselves (yes at a cost, but one that still may be cheaper overall than replacing a whole console), and if all else fails, you can simply replace the whole unit just as you would with a console - although this would come at a cost premium, albeit again with the opportunity to upgrade at the same time.

Nothing annoys me more than people who shift goal posts. The discussion was about the friction of replacing a whole device vs replacing parts of the device. Not once did I reference the cost at all. The text above is just a giant strawman that I never argued in the first place. It's completely illogical to suggest that there's more friction in replacing a whole device than a single part. To even replace the part, you must figure out which part failed. Ideally figure out why so a replacement doesn't fail again. Order a new replacement, then take apart your pc and install the new replacement. Somehow, you think that has less friction than just buying a new device.... Yea sure...

I think you can make an argument for why console gaming is the better choice for games who want zero hassle without exaggerating everything. The simple truth is that pretty much every game is going to offer a better technical experience on a high end PC vs it's console counterpart, and not simply the big headline games like Cyberpunk. Every game will offer some combination of better image quality, better frame rate and better core graphics (particularly where RT is involved).

I don't agree with the bold. I'm not going to detail why as I'm not interested in prolonging this discussion.

Are you keeping your PC in an oven? This is not a typical PC hardware experience at all. Quite frankly, if you're seeing this many hardware failures from disparate components I think you need to start thinking about what the common cause could be. i.e. are you installing the components correctly? are you selecting the right components for your system? is your PC in operating in a suitable environment and sufficiently cooled?

I appreciate your concern about the failure of the components and I can assure you that I've identified the root cause of each of the failures. I'd ask you to define the "typical" pc experience but, then you'd just define your own experience and try to extrapolate out to a wider subset.

Please define "inferior to console in every way, shape and form". If configured so, this is the first thing I will see when starting up my PC:

View attachment 12018

This menu is navigable via control pad. Any game in this display will launch with a single controller click regardless of it's originating store. When the game is closed I will be returned back to this screen without ever having to know what store the game was launched from. When I'm ready to shut down, I simply select the menu in the top right and select the shut down (or sleep) option. I can even select to shut down and install Windows updates from here. All game updates are handled invisibly via their own stores so I never have to be aware of them.

How is this inferior to the console experience? Note the games in this list include Sony, Microsoft, and Nintendo exclusives, both past and present. I can run Gran Turismo 6, close it and go seamlessly into Starfield, close that and load up Mario Odyssey with one controller button click, close that and launch Mario 64, close that and fire up TLOU. All of this from the single, seamless interface. You would need a minimum of 3 separate consoles to do that, so please do explain to me how this is "inferior to console in every way, shape and form".



Again, you're making out like this is a totally normal and common PC experience. Just because a couple of games may have seen a 10% performance degradation on certain hardware configurations with a particular driver update, or 1% of users got the occasional BSOD after a particular Windows update that was presumably updated itself to resolve, does not make this the normal PC experience. The vast majority of PC gamers will continue gaming away without experiencing or noticing any of these issues. I mean, I am certainly what would be considered a performance sensitive PC gamer, but i don't believe I've ever experienced a driver update that noticeably impacted the quality of a game i was playing at that point. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, simply that it's far, far less common than you're making out. Perfect? No. And that is an advantage for consoles if even once in a blue moon issues like this are an game breaker for you (see @Nisaaru point above about re-inputting a password in Steam once every few years being too much). But don;t make out this is the normal day to day experience that "PC gamers have to suffer through". Because it it isn't. Not even close.

Your whole stance during this discussion is to defend the poor and I mean poor state of PC gaming. It has improved in some areas and regressed in others. I game on PC, Consoles, Steam Deck, even tried cloud gaming(xCloud, Geforce Now, PSN) a few times. I don't need you to tell me what is cumbersome and what is not. I have my own PC experiences of multiple decades to tell me that. In terms of ease of use, Consoles == Mobile Gaming >= Cloud Gaming >= Steam Deck >>>>>>>>>> Windows in that order. You can disagree if you want and you're entitled to do so. As far as I'm concerned, PC gaming ranges from cumbersome to uncouth. It's perhaps the most troublesome way to play a game if your sole objective is to play games. My opinion on the matter will not change anytime soon.

 

[Remij]

Neither proposition has changed.

 

[B m A]

Console gaming is becoming very elitist. This is concerning.

Companies in the AAA gaming segment (console makers and publishers) are acting like their consumers (and potential consumers) will say "Bring it to me!" with whatever they do. But with this economic climate, and with what they are actually delivering, they may have a not good surprise soon.

I don't rule out a new gaming crash in the next 10 years.

 

[Malo]

KB/M against controllers is a huge competitive advantage. XIM/Cronus is an adapter that allows KB/M support for console games that choose not to officially support KB/M for competitive parity, it's essentially no different than a cheat/hack.

That aged concept still only really applies to twitch first person shooters, which don't exist much on consoles. Most of your common cross platform shooters are built with controller advantage.

 

[Cappuccino]

There's still a world of difference between the cheats on console - people using input macros etc - and the downright hacks on PC. So long as your game supports console only, cross-platform being isolated, you have a much better player experience. If gaming is to go PC only, we need hardware banning as an option to fix cheats.

But what I’m saying is every modern multiplayer game is cross play. Almost every CoD match I play is a mix of console and PC players. You can’t avoid the PC macro users by being on console.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

But what I’m saying is every modern multiplayer game is cross play. Almost every CoD match I play is a mix of console and PC players. You can’t avoid the PC macro users by being on console.

That's a fault of the games, I'd argue. On Apex, Cross play is console vs console. Console players only play against PC if they party up with PC players. Direct console vs PC makes no sense even without cheats!

 

[pjbliverpool]

And why would I do that? Part of the whole point of playing on pc is finding deals where ever they may be and often times, that's not steam.

You would do that if as you claim, multi store friction is such a burning issue for you that it would stop you gaming on PC altogether. I personally find that concept ridiculous, but the option of restricting yourself to Steam if needs be absolutely exists. Also, you can still get great deals on PC with Steam by purchasing the Steam key outside of the Steam store, e.g. via CD Keys.

Nothing annoys me more than people who shift goal posts. The discussion was about the friction of replacing a whole device vs replacing parts of the device. Not once did I reference the cost at all. The text above is just a giant strawman that I never argued in the first place. It's completely illogical to suggest that there's more friction in replacing a whole device than a single part. To even replace the part, you must figure out which part failed. Ideally figure out why so a replacement doesn't fail again. Order a new replacement, then take apart your pc and install the new replacement. Somehow, you think that has less friction than just buying a new device.... Yea sure...

Well if for example I have only to replace a stick of Ram, or a GPU, then these are both very easy components to replace, not particularly more difficult than physically swapping out a console. However.... there is no post swap setup or re-downloading of games to be done as there would be in the console case. Hence, less friction.

I'll grant, the above is a bit of a corner case and on average would agree that swapping a whole console vs an individual failed component of a PC is a little simpler. However, you seem to be ignoring that swapping the whole PC is also an option and would be just as straight forward as swapping the whole console. And since by your own admission above, cost does not factor into this argument at all, I'm really not seeing what point you're trying to make?

If you ignore cost completely then both are as easy as each other - just swap the whole thing. If you account for cost then the PC option brings potential cost savings at the possible expense of being more complicated (but not necessarily). Using this line of argument to extoll the advantages of console gaming over PC gaming seems like a bit of an own goal to me.

I don't agree with the bold. I'm not going to detail why as I'm not interested in prolonging this discussion.

Really? So you want to make the claim that on a high end PC there would exist games (in meaningful numbers hopefully) that would not offer some element of either high frame rate, higher resolution, or improved core graphics over their console counterparts?

But you don't want to back this up with any specific examples. I can certainly see why you would shy away from that

I appreciate your concern about the failure of the components and I can assure you that I've identified the root cause of each of the failures. I'd ask you to define the "typical" pc experience but, then you'd just define your own experience and try to extrapolate out to a wider subset.

You are trying to define a "typical PC experience" as one which suffers from multiple hardware component failures per year on average. So yes, my own experience of course differs from that. But having worked for 20+ years in the IT industry, with a large chunk of that being in PC refresh, I can say with certainty that those levels of component failures are absolutely not typical. And I doubt PC gaming could actually survive if they were.

Your whole stance during this discussion is to defend the poor and I mean poor state of PC gaming. It has improved in some areas and regressed in others. I game on PC, Consoles, Steam Deck, even tried cloud gaming(xCloud, Geforce Now, PSN) a few times. I don't need you to tell me what is cumbersome and what is not. I have my own PC experiences of multiple decades to tell me that. In terms of ease of use, Consoles == Mobile Gaming >= Cloud Gaming >= Steam Deck >>>>>>>>>> Windows in that order. You can disagree if you want and you're entitled to do so. As far as I'm concerned, PC gaming ranges from cumbersome to uncouth. It's perhaps the most troublesome way to play a game if your sole objective is to play games. My opinion on the matter will not change anytime soon.

My stance is that if you want to claim something is poor, give actual examples - real ones, not made up ones like "the horror of installing Windows updates" which are actually just a single button click every few weeks.

You've noted a couple of corner issues with driver updates that have caused some problems for a small percentage of users, and I absolutely acknowledge that can be the case with PC's. But if you make wide ranging statements like (I'm paraphrasing) 'multistore friction on PC is so bad that I would rather game on console despite owning a 4080 powered PC' then I'd expect you to back that up with specifics, especially when presented with the example of something like Playnite which arguably takes away virtually all of that friction, and in some ways exceeds the console experience in ease of use, e.g. the ability to launch and play games from multiple different console platforms via a single interface.

 

[XboxKING]

“The simple truth is that pretty much every game is going to offer a better technical experience on a high end PC vs it's console counterpart, and not simply the big headline games like Cyberpunk. Every game will offer some combination of better image quality, better frame rate and better core graphics (particularly where RT is involved).“

What if you care about HDR though

 

[pjbliverpool]

“The simple truth is that pretty much every game is going to offer a better technical experience on a high end PC vs it's console counterpart, and not simply the big headline games like Cyberpunk. Every game will offer some combination of better image quality, better frame rate and better core graphics (particularly where RT is involved).“

What if you care about HDR though

Then the PC has an even greater advantage because features like Auto HDR, or RTX HDR can add HDR into every game, including those that feature no HDR in the console versions. And RTX HDR in particular can often be better than a games native HDR implementation.

It's a fair point that before these solutions and going back a decade or so, HDR implementations in PC games were far less consistent than consoles. But most games that support HDR on console these days seem to also support it on PC. And the auto solutions fill in any gaps.

 

[XboxKING]

PC vs. PS5 Pro: Making PC gaming more relevant than ever

High performance console gaming just got much more expensive.

www.pcgamer.com

“Boil it down to basics, and the PS5 Pro is a $200 premium for a GPU upgrade”

It is normal for PC to get a free additional 1TB 7GB/sec SSD storage ?

 

[XboxKING]

Then the PC has an even greater advantage because features like Auto HDR, or RTX HDR can add HDR into every game, including those that feature no HDR in the console versions. And RTX HDR in particular can often be better than a games native HDR implementation.

It's a fair point that before these solutions and going back a decade or so, HDR implementations in PC games were far less consistent than consoles. But most games that support HDR on console these days seem to also support it on PC. And the auto solutions fill in any gaps.

According to DF HDR on PC is broken in most games, especially if you is windows which probably cannot even use HDR correctly in the first place

 

[pjbliverpool]

According to DF HDR on PC is broken in most games, especially if you is windows which probably cannot even use HDR correctly in the first place

According to DF when though? As I mentioned above, going back to the Windows 10 days then yes, HDR on PC was a mess. Windows handled it poorly and many games featured no native implementation where the console version did.

But things are much different now. Windows 11 significantly improved the way it handles HDR which I would argue is now seamless (just turn it on and leave it), while most modern games where the console implementation features HDR will feature the same on PC. And as I mentioned, the auto solutions that we've got over the last 2-3 years will add HDR into pretty much any game. If you watch the last DF video on RTX HDR you will see Alex had very high praise for it.