Can we really judge a console's power on exclusive games or multiplaform games?

Larger worlds are not needed they are already big enough.

In your opinion, and the conversion was about what PC could do in an exclusive, not what you think is worth while.

the switch has a game with some of the best physics, and its a toaster,

And the frame rate suffers as a result.

the budget is already too high

Says who? You? Do you work in the industry? What are your budgets?

as it is so pushing for the stuff you want is not very realistic for 99% of developers.

Yes it is, most engines support doing all that stuff and UE5 has shown off doing just that.

Allocated time and budget apply for every game and the skill of the developer.

Allocated budgets for the same game still vary per machine, so they're still not directly comparable.

looking at 2 different games, skill of developer, art style, goals is next to impossible to compare. you had some of the most talents devs in the world on ps3/360 with massive time and budgets anyway work on multiplatform games.

But they were not equal across the platforms.
 
In your opinion, and the conversion was about what PC could do in an exclusive, not what you think is worth while.



And the frame rate suffers as a result.



Says who? You? Do you work in the industry? What are your budgets?



Yes it is, most engines support doing all that stuff and UE5 has shown off doing just that.



Allocated budgets for the same game still vary per machine, so they're still not directly comparable.



But they were not equal across the platforms.
Nothing is never gonna be equal 100% but that' the best option there is, and that's the method that will always be used. As for PC exclusives just look at ps4 vs ps5 add a ps4 ssd and every game will run with a few downgrades.
 
In your opinion, and the conversion was about what PC could do in an exclusive, not what you think is worth while.



And the frame rate suffers as a result.



Says who? You? Do you work in the industry? What are your budgets?



Yes it is, most engines support doing all that stuff and UE5 has shown off doing just that.



Allocated budgets for the same game still vary per machine, so they're still not directly comparable.



But they were not equal across the platforms.
You seem to assume port teams can't do there jobs, even though plenty games were lead on ps3 and guess what they ran just fine on 360.
 
port teams may not have access to the full dev documentation of the game they are porting for NDA reasons, they might have to figure out how to port it with the ressources and time they are given.
 
Port teams aren't always given the same amount of time or man power as other teams.

Which you can't seem to understand.
I do understand but that's why i said a large number of ports. The same story played out for, 7th, 8th and now 9th. you can say well ps3 games starting being closer and some even ran better but it was not common, and the ones that ran better in a significant way you can probably count on 1 hand.
 
Some things to consider; many will claim that the PC gaming market has never been doing better, but at the same time, many current generation ports are historically bad. Almost every big AAA PC release has compilation stutters for example. It cannot be because of developers not investing money in PC as they are supposed to make a lot of money on the platform.

Is the PC architecture at fault? Is windows the problem? It cannot all be lazy devs and I refuse to believe that they cannot ask the real developers on how to fix the problems.

I guess the problem is with the architecture, and the drivers. So you can apply to to consoles as well; even if XBox360 was weaker in some regards, if the tools were better, and the developers were more accustomed to working with the architecture, the result would be a better looking title.
If you compare GTA4 between PS3 and 360; you’d think PS3 was a mistake. However, compare GTA5 and not only does it look superior to GTA4, it even ran better on PS3. This was with the developer creating launch titles on 360, and knowing the architecture inside oud, while at the same time having years of experience with PS3 in the end
 
Some things to consider; many will claim that the PC gaming market has never been doing better, but at the same time, many current generation ports are historically bad. Almost every big AAA PC release has compilation stutters for example. It cannot be because of developers not investing money in PC as they are supposed to make a lot of money on the platform.

Is the PC architecture at fault? Is windows the problem? It cannot all be lazy devs and I refuse to believe that they cannot ask the real developers on how to fix the problems.

I guess the problem is with the architecture, and the drivers. So you can apply to to consoles as well; even if XBox360 was weaker in some regards, if the tools were better, and the developers were more accustomed to working with the architecture, the result would be a better looking title.
If you compare GTA4 between PS3 and 360; you’d think PS3 was a mistake. However, compare GTA5 and not only does it look superior to GTA4, it even ran better on PS3. This was with the developer creating launch titles on 360, and knowing the architecture inside oud, while at the same time having years of experience with PS3 in the end

GTAV really didn't run better, if anything 360 had a slight advantage, and gtav was lead on ps3.
 
Some things to consider; many will claim that the PC gaming market has never been doing better, but at the same time, many current generation ports are historically bad. Almost every big AAA PC release has compilation stutters for example. It cannot be because of developers not investing money in PC as they are supposed to make a lot of money on the platform.

Is the PC architecture at fault? Is windows the problem? It cannot all be lazy devs and I refuse to believe that they cannot ask the real developers on how to fix the problems.

I guess the problem is with the architecture, and the drivers. So you can apply to to consoles as well; even if XBox360 was weaker in some regards, if the tools were better, and the developers were more accustomed to working with the architecture, the result would be a better looking title.
If you compare GTA4 between PS3 and 360; you’d think PS3 was a mistake. However, compare GTA5 and not only does it look superior to GTA4, it even ran better on PS3. This was with the developer creating launch titles on 360, and knowing the architecture inside oud, while at the same time having years of experience with PS3 in the end
Developers invest the least amount of money in the PC.
 
Developers invest the least amount of money in the PC.
I mean with PC yuou also have to deal with so many configurations as well on PC, comparing console to pc is not a great comparsion. this is a really good post that explains it.

(I should say upfront--there is a big difference between porting a game, and porting an engine. Keep that in mind.)

So it really, really depends.

It depends on the console that's being ported from, and the engine that the game was written in.

For games written in a general, multi-platform engine like Unity or Unreal, porting is as simple as clicking a button to switch the platform you're targeting. (Except that it's not--there are still platform-specific adjustments to the game code and resources you'll have to make, but generally this is done at a fairly abstract level, in the same language that the game was originally written in.)

Porting a game created in a proprietary engine (as in an engine used by a single company, like the engine behind Halo; not one licensed to many companies, like Unity) written to target a specific platform is much less abstract, and more difficult.

I'm a general programmer with a poor knowledge of low-level systems design (computer hardware is a black box to me).

For the engineers who make games like The Last of Us and Grand Theft Auto V possible, an intimate understanding of their target hardware is critical to doing their job. Console games (especially towards the end of a generation) that push their hardware to the absolute limit can only exist because of performance optimizations and hacks to their engine made at a low, low level in code. These console games (particularly exclusives) are tied intimately to their native hardware. Developers know exactly what they're going to be running on, and what all the quirks of that architecture are.

(As an example, Grand Theft Auto V on Xbox 360 was only possible because developers figured out how to stream game data from the disk drive and hard drive simultaneously--something very specific to that console.)

So compare consoles to PCs. PCs have infinite, unknown, ever-changing configurations. You can’t optimize to a generic PC's hardware the way you can to a console's, so some of the tricks that made your game run on Xbox just won't carry over.

It's not just that different PCs have different performance specs (e.g. differently clocked CPUs, different amounts of RAM); it’s also that different PCs can have completely incompatible architectures. (Different CPUs work very differently.)

Some consoles (like the Nintendo 3DS and Switch) are ARM-based. But most builds of Windows are tailored to x86.

Consoles like the Xbox use an AMD graphics card. So do some PCs; but many use Nvidia chips, or integrated graphics on the CPU. Each class of graphics processor has a unique driver implementation that needs to be accounted for in order for them to be compatible with graphics APIs (the libraries that make it possible for programmers to send instructions to graphics hardware).

Luckily, most open APIs support most graphics cards--but not all APIs are open!

Playstation uses a custom graphics API similar to but different from other common graphics APIs. So if a developer wants to port their custom game running on a custom engine targeting Playstation, they need to go through their code and replace all of their API calls! (While hoping that the two APIs have analogous features.)

Even if you're using a cross-platform API, support across all architectures isn't necessarily even--DirectX can run on ARM hardware, but in a way that's limited compared to its performance on x86.

So if you write your game engine on DirectX, but decide you want to port to ARM devices, you could be in trouble.

In some ways (speaking as someone who has never had to do this), it seems like the nightmare scenario is not actually porting a game from console to PC, but from console to console: take the Switch, an ARM-based device with a custom graphics API, and Playstation, an x86 device with a completely different custom graphics API. Your game’s engine needs to totally change the architecture it supports, and the API it uses.

By contrast, consider moving from Xbox to Windows: x86/DirectX to x86/DirectX (an Xbox might as well be a highly custom, standardized PC).

So: porting an entire engine is difficult, because of the problem of targeting multiple distinct architectures. Large AAA studios can afford to do it.

But for the majority of mid-tier and indie developers, maintaining and porting an in-house engine just isn't worth it. It’s much less risky and much more cost-effective to just license an engine from a third party whose main focus is engine development, not game creation.

Choosing to develop with an engine like Unity is choosing to outsource your low-level graphics programming. Porting your game becomes much simpler, because you have a guarantee that your engine will work out-of-the-box with your target platform. All you have to do is make sure your game runs within the performance constraints of your target platform, by managing the assets you use. (Which is still difficult! Just not as difficult as porting from scratch.)

Low-level graphics programmers make a lot of money for a reason: their work is complex, endlessly intricate, and the backbone of the rest of the industry.

So far in talking about porting I've touched on the approach of writing an engine, writing a game in the engine, and then porting that engine.

But there’s one more approach: picking an engine, writing a game in that engine, then throwing the engine code away, and translating the game code to work in a different engine altogether.

Take Binding of Isaac: it was originally a flash game, coded in ActionScript. Flash is proprietary, and only runs in browsers (or a browser wrapped in a desktop app). There was no way for the developers to port flash to console (because it’s closed-source, and Adobe has no interest in that). So if they wanted to port BoI, they'd have to abandon flash, and reimplememt the game in an entirely different engine. And that's exactly what they did! BoI’s game code isn't in ActionScript anymore, but it’s probably one-to-one translated, and functionally the same.

This also happened with porting Minecraft to Xbox: Java binaries don't run as console games, so the game code was reimplemented in C++/C#.

Sometimes, people want to port a game, but not only do they not have access to the engine code; they've lost access to the game code entirely. So they have to do the whole project from scratch, and try their best to mimic the original game’s functionality.

That's what happened with the rerelease of the Crash Bandicoot series: the new games aren't true ports; they're complete recreations. Functionally Crash, but not at all internally.

So. Apologies for such a text wall!

In sum: the process for porting depends on what code you have access to (engine, project, or both); whether or not your engine is cross-platform; whether or not it’s possible to port the engine to a new platform if it isn't; and whether or not it’s more cost-effective to port an engine, or to just move a game to a different engine where the work of porting has already been done.

Cheers!
 
It isn't limited to exclusive games which were heavily tailored to one platform though. Huge multiplatform only developers like Capcom have been shipping PC games for almost a decade with core aspects of the rendering broken. TAA in this case. It is not some herculean effort to code a working TAA implementation. Between rendering issues on PC versions of games, various kinds of stutter, lack of CPU threading and the other myriad of issues common place, I don't think we can claim that the majority of developers invest into the PC version anywhere near as much as consoles. Hell, developers wouldn't even include any type of reconstruction options if it wasn't done for them by the IHVs.
 
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It isn't limited to exclusive games which were heavily tailored to one platform though. Huge multiplatform only developers like Capcom have been shipping PC games for almost a decade with core aspects of the rendering broken. TAA in this case. It is not some herculean effort to code a working TAA implementation. Between rendering issues on PC versions of games, various kinds of stutter, lack of CPU threading and the other myriad of issues common place, I don't think we can claim that the majority of developers invest into the PC version anywhere near as much as consoles. Hell, developers wouldn't even include any type of reconstruction options if it wasn't done for them by the IHVs.
I wouldn't call it "core aspects of the rendering broken" These games look best on PC.. always have, always will. There's some variance between the quality of AA implementations on various platforms. It happens between Xbox and Playstation as well.. And developers only invest in console specific features because platform holders make it worth their while to... it's no different than IHVs pushing their technologies in games.

Developers do things because there's incentive. Sony and MS and Nintendo as platform holders hold companies to a certain quality standard (which has been dropping over time) whereas PC doesn't quite have that same structure in place. On consoles, the platform holders are some what of a driving push for quality before the game releases.. but sadly on PC that onus is placed on the players who have to hold them accountable after the fact..

All that said.. I think you can judge a console's power based off how it's been marketed and whether it lives up to the hype that the company has built up for it through any and all games. In the case of Sony and the PS5, I'd say they've done a much better job than Microsoft have with Xbox. Xbox marketed the Series X as the most powerful, and yet PS5 is right there with it in most games. That's an obvious win for PS. Same with games utilizing the advanced features of the console such as the SSD which they touted as being super fast. Well, it is.. there are Sony games that prove it and use it in an obvious and effective way.. Meanwhile, I'm left completely underwhelmed by all the jargon MS spouted for the Series X like the Velocity Arch and direct storage, mesh shaders, and SFS. No real games to point to where you can say.. yep.. that tech made that game stand out from the rest.

So yea, you can use the games to judge a consoles power.. and whether or not it's being utilized and taken advantage of. That's my take.
 
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GTAV really didn't run better, if anything 360 had a slight advantage, and gtav was lead on ps3.
Not really:


At last, Rockstar North's monstrous open-world caper is here in all its glory - but after five years and an estimated £170 million being sunk into development and marketing, which version is the one to buy? After playing both versions extensively and amassing over 2TB of lossless video to analyse, we must stress that you're bound to have a fantastic time with either take. Lighting and physics engines are fully intact on both versions, and the minor differences in reflection mapping go down as nitpicks. At its core, both PS3 and 360 present the same massive Los Angeles-inspired sprawl via the same 720p native resolution lens, with almost entirely identical effects and object detail.

However, it's apparent that the PS3 version has an undeniable advantage in one area: even to the naked eye, ground textures on 360 are blurred as a result of what appears to be unoptimised asset streaming. Glitch or not, this basically amounts to concrete and grass textures appearing fuzzier beneath the feet of Trevor, Michael or Franklin, while the PS3 version's remain crystal clear. The 360 does command a minor advantage in frame-rate during synchronised play, but for shoot-outs and high-speed hurtles down the city streets, the PS3 can sometimes pull ahead in these metrics - though the difference is rarely perceptible either way. Since all else is identical across the board, the PS3 version is recommended on the grounds of image quality if you have the option.



 
Not really:


At last, Rockstar North's monstrous open-world caper is here in all its glory - but after five years and an estimated £170 million being sunk into development and marketing, which version is the one to buy? After playing both versions extensively and amassing over 2TB of lossless video to analyse, we must stress that you're bound to have a fantastic time with either take. Lighting and physics engines are fully intact on both versions, and the minor differences in reflection mapping go down as nitpicks. At its core, both PS3 and 360 present the same massive Los Angeles-inspired sprawl via the same 720p native resolution lens, with almost entirely identical effects and object detail.

However, it's apparent that the PS3 version has an undeniable advantage in one area: even to the naked eye, ground textures on 360 are blurred as a result of what appears to be unoptimised asset streaming. Glitch or not, this basically amounts to concrete and grass textures appearing fuzzier beneath the feet of Trevor, Michael or Franklin, while the PS3 version's remain crystal clear. The 360 does command a minor advantage in frame-rate during synchronised play, but for shoot-outs and high-speed hurtles down the city streets, the PS3 can sometimes pull ahead in these metrics - though the difference is rarely perceptible either way. Since all else is identical across the board, the PS3 version is recommended on the grounds of image quality if you have the option.



Yea that could have been a glitch they said, but that video i posted was after the ps4 version came out and there is a clear slight advantage in framerate to 360, maybe it was patched?
 
I played GTA5 on 360. I put the install disk on an SSD via USB, and installed the "play from" disk to the internal HDD.

Streaming was a ton better than either the 360 or PS3 in the Digital Foundry video.

For my money, GTA5 was a lot more impressive than any PS3 or 360 exclusive.
 
I played GTA5 on 360. I put the install disk on an SSD via USB, and installed the "play from" disk to the internal HDD.

Streaming was a ton better than either the 360 or PS3 in the Digital Foundry video.

For my money, GTA5 was a lot more impressive than any PS3 or 360 exclusive.
Can you define what you found particularly more impressive?
 
I played GTA5 on 360. I put the install disk on an SSD via USB, and installed the "play from" disk to the internal HDD.

Streaming was a ton better than either the 360 or PS3 in the Digital Foundry video.

For my money, GTA5 was a lot more impressive than any PS3 or 360 exclusive.
Any games not made by Rockstar you think deserve mention?

I wouldn't call it "core aspects of the rendering broken" These games look best on PC.. always have, always will. There's some variance between the quality of AA implementations on various platforms. It happens between Xbox and Playstation as well.. And developers only invest in console specific features because platform holders make it worth their while to... it's no different than IHVs pushing their technologies in games.

Developers do things because there's incentive. Sony and MS and Nintendo as platform holders hold companies to a certain quality standard (which has been dropping over time) whereas PC doesn't quite have that same structure in place. On consoles, the platform holders are some what of a driving push for quality before the game releases.. but sadly on PC that onus is placed on the players who have to hold them accountable after the fact..

All that said.. I think you can judge a console's power based off how it's been marketed and whether it lives up to the hype that the company has built up for it through any and all games. In the case of Sony and the PS5, I'd say they've done a much better job than Microsoft have with Xbox. Xbox marketed the Series X as the most powerful, and yet PS5 is right there with it in most games. That's an obvious win for PS. Same with games utilizing the advanced features of the console such as the SSD which they touted as being super fast. Well, it is.. there are Sony games that prove it and use it in an obvious and effective way.. Meanwhile, I'm left completely underwhelmed by all the jargon MS spouted for the Series X like the Velocity Arch and direct storage, mesh shaders, and SFS. No real games to point to where you can say.. yep.. that tech made that game stand out from the rest.

So yea, you can use the games to judge a consoles power.. and whether or not it's being utilized and taken advantage of. That's my take.

I consider TAA to be a core part of the rendering. I don't consider it to fall under the category of simple variance when it works no better than a basic SMAA filter.
 
I consider TAA to be a core part of the rendering. I don't consider it to fall under the category of simple variance when it works no better than a basic SMAA filter

It's not, in this game. You can literally turn it off.. so it's not core to anything.

And I disagree that it's 'no better than an SMAA filter' I'll have to check again but I don't remember it being bad... just different from consoles.. hence the variance.. which as I said, can also happen between the consoles themselves in games.
 
A question for you guys do you think BOTW ported to 360 could run and retain 90-95% of it's visuals and would the frame rate run better cause of the cpu?
 
Can you define what you found particularly more impressive?

It's the totality of what the game's doing.

The game looks good on foot, or driving fast, or up in the air flying a jet. The streaming system and control of polygon and texture budgets to do that is amazing. You can even switch characters and move across the city.

But that's not all it's doing. The physics engine can handle walking or bumping into people, car handling and impacts, explosions, sparks, and even pretty cool helicopter control dynamics. So it balances tick rate and collision mesh complexity across a large range of scenarios.

But it also has really good, fun NPC scripting with pretty responsive behaviour. And some pretty good dynamic lighting.

So many things are dynamic and "free" in GTAV and the game still looks great overall. I'm still pretty in awe of what they achieved.

Uncharted and Gears have a very limited number of objects and behaviours, very limited movement with predetermined sequences of loading, and they can build environments for specific types of movement and collision. Baked lighting also allows a ton of artistic polish. It's the direction and polish that make Gears and Uncharted so slick to watch.

Any games not made by Rockstar you think deserve mention?

I'll have a think. The Ass Creed games have some technical chops, and maybe Crysis 2...?
 
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