Sega Saturn Shenmue Gameplay Video

[Guden Oden]

You're the one who missed it, then.

It was this way - the PS version ran flashier, the Saturn version ran smoother - as it was with more than a few games that appeared for both platforms.

No, no, no, no. WO was pretty solid 25fps on PS, on Saturn there was a definite juddering to the screen updates. Not to mention the pixellated explosions and engine trails, oye vey!

and many others.

Oh, I'm surely converted to your side NOW! "Many others"! Let's just forget the awkward, bumbling design of the hardware itself with its multitude of processors (six in total, as I recall, though I might easily have missed one or two! ), I think you'll find a lot more games ran much better on PS than the other way around.

Apart from the HORRID texture warping, which was always much less prominent on Saturn, there's not much in that machine's favor in comparison. Well, more total memory, but then it didn't have 4:1 hardware sound compression, so that evened things out and then some. It might well have more total integer processing power even considering it has no hardware geometry transform capabilities, but you'd both have to be able to divide your tasks amongst all those separate processors (which requires a smart programmer), which apart from main SH2s were ALL different by the way, and have a task that suited itself to being divided up (not all are).

The system's custom titles most often excelled for their consistent, higher framerates

Uh, come again??? Custom titles' higher framerates COMPARED TO WHAT? Those same custom titles running on PS? I didn't play all those you mention (I guess Saturn died quicker over here), but Nights was a fairly pedestrian 25fps at the most, as was the more complex PS titles I might add. I actually thought Panzer Dragoon 2 beat the pants off Nights in both graphics and gameplay departments, Nights was a confused, uninspired Mario64 knee-jerk response that used way too much purple in it graphics design. PD was simple to say the least in its gameplay, but it executed what little it had with lethal precision. Awesome shooting game for its time! Nights was just tired and boring IMO.

Many top developers felt that the Saturn was more powerful than the PS when both machines were taken advantage of

Strange then that so little of that was reflected in software, don't you think? I mean, you know of ANY Saturn game that beats for example the Crash Bandicoot series in the graphics department? Those polygon rates are seriously wicked for the time!

Snowblind's core team and founders, who previously founded Lobotomy Software, learned the Saturn inside and out and felt this way.

Well, there's always going to be personal preference. Some people are just wired differently, that's only to be expected. Naughty Dog seems very fond of Sony's current hardware for example, which according to many on the net is the weakest hardware this gen yet we have Jak2 producing some seriously nutty tri-linearly filtered visuals.

Their games were great on both systems, but were able to be more advanced on SEGA's.

"Were able to" is putting value statements into your sentence. It's not proven they couldn't have been at least as advanced on PS, all we know is that the programmers CHOSE to make Saturn version better - according to you. I never played any of their games so I don't know, I just take your word for it.

Of course, such a determination always exists in a subjective realm depending on which aspects of graphics impress you most.

Exactly. Also, I take it you're a pretty big Sega fan overall, so it would follow you're somewhat more forgiving about their hardware platform. Hey come on, you can admit it. I'm probably the same way re. Nintendo, hehe. Some SNES games may have had more slowdown than their Megadrive counterparts, but instead being more colorful, for example.

 

[Squeak]

It might well have more total integer processing power even considering it has no hardware geometry transform capabilities, but you'd both have to be able to divide your tasks amongst all those separate processors (which requires a smart programmer), which apart from main SH2s were ALL different by the way, and have a task that suited itself to being divided up (not all are).

You might argue, that Saturn was in fact the first consumer device to have a programmable geometry transformation processor.

Nights was a confused, uninspired Mario64 knee-jerk response that used way too much purple in it graphics design.

Oh boy! Duck and cover.

Edit: On a related note, I once read a interview with Yuji Naka (which I can't find of course), where he made a pretty convincing argument, claiming that the SH2 could do more matrix transformations p/s than either N64s Reality Engine derivative or Playstations GTE.

 

[V3]

and gameplay departments, Nights was a confused, uninspired Mario64 knee-jerk response that used way too much purple in it graphics design.

Once you become really good with both games, only then you will understand that Nights is a better game than Mario64. On the surface, I can understand why people choose Mario64 though.

Still though, IMO Saturn wasn't a good enough consoles for Nights.

Besides that going from Saturn or Arcade to Playstation, Playstation has a slow response time from inputs. I never actually managed to adjust to it, that response time practically kill my enjoyment of most action games. And that's my memory of Playstation basically

 

[Crazyace]

You might argue, that Saturn was in fact the first consumer device to have a programmable geometry transformation processor.

I'd say that the Jaguar takes that accolade as far as consoles. ( Some might say SNES / StarFox or 32X etc - but I consider those addons.. ) The GPU and SPU's were dedicated risc processors, and you could use one as a geometry processor, and one as a rasteriser setup engine.
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[Guden Oden]

You might argue, that Saturn was in fact the first consumer device to have a programmable geometry transformation processor.

I don't see how anyone could argue something like that. As demonstrated by... Hm, I don't remember, a previous poster anyway, the integrated DSP of the Saturn did not have a division instruction, and divisions are integral in the vertex transform process. The SH2s are just CPUs and can't be called geometry processors any more than the CPU of a PC, or even Commodore 64 can be!

Nights was a confused, uninspired Mario64 knee-jerk response that used way too much purple in it graphics design.

Oh boy! Duck and cover.

ROFL! IMO, of course.

where he made a pretty convincing argument, claiming that that the SH2 could do more matrix transformations p/s than either N64s Reality Engine derivative or Playstations GTE.

Strange then that even when using both chips, no Saturn game rivalled the best PS games in poly density? The GTE was pretty darn quick, certainly quicker than the RCP in the N64 despite being clocked at only just over half the speed. I doubt a pure software solution, clocked even slower, could have kept up with it. Yes, those Hitachi chips were good for their time, but STILL... I doubt it. If Sega had made that custom DSP of theirs more feature-complete and clocked it at CPU speed maybe the Saturn would have totally kicked butt, but that's just speculation.

 

[Sonic]

When the Saturn was used to its fullest potential it wiped the floor of the PS1. Virtua Fighter 3 on the Saturn is just an example that was never showed to the public but it looked far better than even this Shenmue video. I won't argue that the PS1 is a better dedicated 3d machine, but at times that would also limit what it can do. The Saturn was much better at 2d and if a developer really stuck at it they could do some very impressive 3d stuff on the machine. SEGA's games on the Saturn were some of the best also.

Tohshinden was one of the worst looking fighting game of its time. It also had poor gameplay and didn't run at 60 fps. VF2 came out and really showed what the Saturn was capable of. 60 fps and it was high res for the time. It surprised me to see Fighters Megamix used the Fighting Vipers engine over the VF2 engine. It came out looking worse and had far less geometry per character.

The Playstation was good with Tekken 3. That game was awesome for a port and all the extras made it worthwile. R4 is also one of the best looking racing titles of last year. R4 is hands down a better looking title than GT2 was.

 

[function]

and gameplay departments, Nights was a confused, uninspired Mario64 knee-jerk response that used way too much purple in it graphics design.

Once you become really good with both games, only then you will understand that Nights is a better game than Mario64. On the surface, I can understand why people choose Mario64 though.

Still though, IMO Saturn wasn't a good enough consoles for Nights.

Seems I'm in the same camp as V3 here.

BTW, Nights was in some quarters marketed and hyped as Sega's "answer" to Mario 64 (often not even by Sega), but the two games appearance and play style are *utterly different*. The project's conception had nothing to do with Mario or the N64, and Naka and co. must have been banging their heads off walls at all the ignorant, uninformed dismissals of their game!

 

[function]

Oh yeah, anyone think Sega should have canned the Saturn back in '93 and started from scratch on a new machine? It's difficult to see how a late 95 release in Japan and the US (or maybe early 96) could have gone much worse for them...

 

[Crazyace]

As general cpu's the sh2 multiplies were far faster than the MIPs on the PS1..

For a 3x4 matrix mul you might do something like...

lds.l macl,tx
mac.w @vect+,@matrix+
mac.w @vect+,@matrix+
mac.w @vect+,@matrix+
addi #-6,vect
sts.l macl,rx
lds.l macl,ty
mac.w @vect+,@matrix+
mac.w @vect+,@matrix+
mac.w @vect+,@matrix+
addi #-6,vect
sts.l macl,ry
lds.l macl,tz
mac.w @vect+,@matrix+
mac.w @vect+,@matrix+
mac.w @vect+,@matrix+
sts.l macl,rz

Where vec is xyz, tx/ty/tz are translations, and matrix is a 3x3 rotation..
Without counting for stalls this will need about 9x2 ( mac.w ) + 8 giving 26 cycles.
On PS1 in cpu you would use

mul vx,m0 (7)
mflo temp (1)
mul vy,m1 (7)
add rx,temp,tx (0)
mflo temp (1)
mul vz,m2 (7)
add rx,temp,rx (0)
mflo temp (1)
mul vx,m3 (7)
add rx,temp,rx (0)
mflo temp (1)
mul vy,m4 (7)
add ry,temp,ty (0)
mflo temp (1)
mul vz,m5 (7)
add ry,temp,ry (0)
mflo temp (1)
mul vx,m6 (7)
add ry,temp,ry (0)
mflo temp (1)
mul vy,m7 (7)
add rz,temp,tz (0)
mflo temp (1)
mul vz,m8 (7)
add rz,temp,rz (0)
mflo temp (1)
add rz,temp,rz (1)

This gives (7+1)*9 +1 or 73 cycles - a lot slower, but you could use the coprocessor to do the same in <10 cycles.

 

[zidane1strife]

When the Saturn was used to its fullest potential it wiped the floor of the PS1. Virtua Fighter 3 on the Saturn is just an example that was never showed to the public but it looked far better than even this Shenmue video.

You do know that, IIRC, some of the models used for a few psone rpgs, have withstood the test of time. That is if I'd seen such models in Skies of Arcadia, FFX, or the like, I wouldn't be surprised.

Darn, I've got to replay some of them to see if my memory deludes me, but from a pic I saw on the net... it still impresses, could very well be an xbox, gcn, or ps2 model in an rpg.( heck, I showed the pic to a friend and asked him what system he thought it was for? You know what he said? Ps3....)

 

[London Geezer]

When the Saturn was used to its fullest potential it wiped the floor of the PS1. Virtua Fighter 3 on the Saturn is just an example that was never showed to the public but it looked far better than even this Shenmue video.

You do know that, IIRC, some of the models used for a few psone rpgs, have withstood the test of time. That is if I'd seen such models in Skies of Arcadia, FFX, or the like, I wouldn't be surprised.

Darn, I've got to replay some of them to see if my memory deludes me, but from a pic I saw on the net... it still impresses, could very well be an xbox, gcn, or ps2 model in an rpg.( heck, I showed the pic to a friend and asked him what system he thought it was for? You know what he said? Ps3....)

Huh? R u serious.... Memory can play some very very bad tricks you know....

 

[zidane1strife]

Huh? R u serious.... Memory can play some very very bad tricks you know...

Well, there's still the pic, and my friend's comment....

 

[Squeak]

Can anyone explain more about texture warping, and why Saturn is much less prone to it than Playstation?
From simply looking at a Playstation game, you can see that it couldn' t possible be doing straight screenspace texturemapping (is that what it's called (the same as what Gouraud shading is doing)?), otherwise the texturewarping would be even worse than it is now.
It's like the textures are pinned to some points within the polygon, and some games use more of those points than others.
What is that technique called, and how does it differ from the way Saturn maps textures?

 

[Tagrineth]

The SCU DSP wasn't as usefull as you might think ( This more than anything seemed to me to be a 2D part ) It has very fast integer multiplies - but no division, which made it superb for traditional sprite rotation and scaling, but not so good for 3D transformation and perspective ) - It was also clocked at 14MHz rather than 28MHz - another advantage for the SH2s..

Which is amusing, considering that every Saturn homebrew dev I know praises the SCU DSP for its uses in 3D work.

 

[zidane1strife]

heh, I remember when I saw the shenmue movie, that was included with shenmue 2 for xbox, I dunno why but I thought that was the "shenmue saturn demo"...

I remember saying "hey, that looks pretty much like the dc version, draw distance seems a little better, impressive... saturn = the P0W3R!!!"

 

[Megadrive1988]

Oh yeah, anyone think Sega should have canned the Saturn back in '93 and started from scratch on a new machine? It's difficult to see how a late 95 release in Japan and the US (or maybe early 96) could have gone much worse for them...

yes.

And apparently, this was debated internally within SoJ

As soon as any console is launched, work is usually underway on a replacement but the Saturn’s troubles gave this process an unusual urgency for Sega. By 1995, rumours surfaced that US defence contractors Lockheed Martin Corp. were already deep into the development of a replacement, possibly even with a view to releasing it as a Saturn upgrade. There were even claims that during Saturn’s pre-launch panic a group of managers argued the machine should simply be scrapped in favour of an all-new LMC design.

http://217.158.191.134/pma/10112


IMHO, Saturn (and Mars 32X) should have been scrapped. Sega should have just hung on with the Genesis+SegaCD / Megadrive+MegaCD, while working with Lockheed Martin on a Real3D-100 based sucessor for 1996. this would have given Sega a machine with power inbetween Model 2 and Model 3. would have avoided both the 32X disaster and Saturn problems for both Sega and developers. - Dreamcast would have come later, say in 2000, with Xbox-class performance. 1989 ---->1996 ---> 2000 with the only addon being the SegaCD.

 

[schmuck]

Saturn was a great console in terms of game catalogue and especially 2d games but when it 3d graphics it was definatly subpar.

Speaking of PS1, what would you all say is the most graphically complex or impressive game for PS1? I know that in general Playstation has some impressive titles, but I'm vague on specifics.

Omega boost, grand turismo, ridge racer type 4, vagrant story, metal gear solid, soul reaver, crash 2-3.

 

[Crazyace]

Sonic wrote

When the Saturn was used to its fullest potential it wiped the floor of the PS1. Virtua Fighter 3 on the Saturn is just an example that was never showed to the public but it looked far better than even this Shenmue video

I think I tend to disagree with this - When the Saturn was used to it's fullest potential it just matched the PS1 in some ways. I dont think that VF3 would have matched tekken 3 in quality - maybe a simple characters on infinite plane demo would have looked nice ( after all Fightere megamix already had some
of the VF3 moves ) but the framerate wouldn't have been sustained with more complex backgrounds.

Tagrineth wrote

Which is amusing, considering that every Saturn homebrew dev I know praises the SCU DSP for its uses in 3D work

Hey - every little helps it's not impossible to implement the entire transformation and lighting as a SCU process - just tedious.. and who's to argue with the homebrew Saturn demos...

[/b]

 

[Guden Oden]

This gives (7+1)*9 +1 or 73 cycles - a lot slower, but you could use the coprocessor to do the same in <10 cycles.

Exactly! Why T&L on the R3300 when you got the GTE that is much faster? Anyway, PS clock cycles are shorter than Saturn ones (33.8MHz I believe, vs ~28), evening out the difference a little.

Can anyone explain more about texture warping, and why Saturn is much less prone to it than Playstation? ( ... ) It's like the textures are pinned to some points within the polygon, and some games use more of those points than others.

Subdivision of large triangles into smaller ones, most likely. The warping is much less pronounced on small ones, and the tendency for tris to not get drawn at all if one corner extends off the edge of the screen is also reduced. Later games subdivide a lot more so you don't see as much twisting textures, since programmers got better at writing 3D engines suited for the PS's rather primitive architecture and utilizing the GTE better.

Some of the worst examples of twisting textures and popping polys are the Twisted Metal games, I don't know if there ever was a third installment, but the first two were HORRIBLE! HORRIBLE! It was the most disgusting crap I've ever seen from a console or computer game I think. The PS should be ashamed of itself for drawing such god-awful graphics. (The programmers should have been drawn and quartered for creating such a rotten piece of code btw, or at least had their balls removed. )

 

[Crazyace]

It was just an example showing how someone could decide that the Saturn was better than the PS..