Capcom's Deep Down
- Thread starter L. Scofield
- Start date
I played the Diablo 3 demo. I hope the randomly generated dungeons in Deep Down are nothing like that. Supposedly manmade structures should not have this arbitrarily layout. Maybe Deep Down has the right idea with basing it's dungeons on object and memories and emotions, that way it doesn't always have to make sense. The Everfall in Dragon's Dogma wasn't randomly generated, but it used the same repeated assets like randomly generated dungeons do. There it worked very well because the strange labyrinthine layout perfectly conveyed the madness of that place.
Deep Down being a AAA next gen game I really hope they push their randomly generated dungeons and monsters beyond anything that's been done before.
Deep Down being a AAA next gen game I really hope they push their randomly generated dungeons and monsters beyond anything that's been done before.
Man-made structures in dungeon crawlers are never realistic, simply because real structures don't have ambling corridors and open spaces. They have an occasional hall and a few corridors and lots of closed rooms off them, which isn't good for the RPG experience. A shooter can benefit from small rooms and a careful sweep through the building, but a dungeon crawler needs space for mobs.
Although randomised dungeons can vary in quality, I'd take them for gameplay over realism every time.
Although randomised dungeons can vary in quality, I'd take them for gameplay over realism every time.
They weren't really fun to play either, at least not in the sense that the layout brought something to the gameplay. Sure it might different the second time through, but that doesn't really do anything for the first time. And second time it didn't really seem all that different to be a game changer.
What it did do is add more backtracking because you could never be certain where the exit was. If they are going give up beautiful hand crafted levels, I'm going to at least want something in return for it.
Going back to Dragon's Dogma, it's combat used a lot of physics, something Deep Down seems to be going for as well. If for example a monster got covered in water, that would make your ice spells more effective. They could do something similar in Deep Down. If they can generated dungeons without or without water in them, that could change the way you play.
What it did do is add more backtracking because you could never be certain where the exit was. If they are going give up beautiful hand crafted levels, I'm going to at least want something in return for it.
Going back to Dragon's Dogma, it's combat used a lot of physics, something Deep Down seems to be going for as well. If for example a monster got covered in water, that would make your ice spells more effective. They could do something similar in Deep Down. If they can generated dungeons without or without water in them, that could change the way you play.
RenegadeRocks
Legend
Diablo 3 randomn levels add a lot to the replays. The game is all abotu replays, the first time is just th ebegining of your play session. They also have special quests hidden on those levels, which you 'find' each time as the layout is never the same. If not for the randomn levels, I would have stopped played D3 completely. All levels have this exploration and gameplay fun due to the randomness. On higher difficulties even the monsters get randmon attributes which makes every lpaythrough as much fun.
I am all in for randmon levels in Deep Down. Adds to the replays when u never know whats around th enext corner.
I am all in for randmon levels in Deep Down. Adds to the replays when u never know whats around th enext corner.
Dungeon crawler gameplay has never been about the level design. What can level design even contribute to the genre? Combat is contained to the screen meaning the only bit that matters are the obstacles as you dodge attacks, and back up into a safe spot for distance attacking. In that, D3 works very well. The sprawling dungeons means sometimes to escape some tough foes, you back into mob-infested corridors or random ambushes, which liven everything up. If D3 had carefully crafted, interactive levels, second time round you'd know what to expect, and third time the game would be predictable.
One can also easily tweak the map generation algorithm to not be sprawling. It's just a style that works of D3 and the players who enjoy that style of game.
Of all the games I've played that have both hand crafted and randomly generated dungeons, I've always enjoyed the hand crafted ones more because it allows the levels to be made in a way that gets the most out of the gameplay, and have a lot of visual story telling and world building that randomly generated dungeon won't allow. I like to be immersed in a world, but the artificial feel randomly generated dungeons ruin that for me.
When comes to replay value, I've played games for hundreds of hours through the same levels and not get bored. Great level design can make a world simply enjoyable to be in by itself. That's how some games get away with having little to no gameplay at all. The constantly repeated assets and dull design of randomly generated dungeons usually make me lose interest much sooner.
That's why I'm hoping Deep Down can do better. Hopefully the gameplay at TGS can showcase this.
When comes to replay value, I've played games for hundreds of hours through the same levels and not get bored. Great level design can make a world simply enjoyable to be in by itself. That's how some games get away with having little to no gameplay at all. The constantly repeated assets and dull design of randomly generated dungeons usually make me lose interest much sooner.
That's why I'm hoping Deep Down can do better. Hopefully the gameplay at TGS can showcase this.
I can't stand "maze-like" level design like seen in old games such as Wolfenstein 3D/Doom etc. Even if you randomly generate levels it doesn't change the repetitive feel. If they're able to create randomly generated levels in Deep Down without that repetitive feel it would be big step in the right direction.
RenegadeRocks
Legend
Yeah, even in Diablo the story is so lame that you don't even notice it. Such games are never for the story, IMO. I had no idea in Demons SOuls either. its the ambience and the exploration andconquering the unknown !!! To be where no man has been before and slay what the mightiest gamer hasn't slain 
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!RenegadeRocks
Legend
Good point ....
and how varied th enenmy types are. that is the biggest draw in Diablo 3 repeat playthroughs. The enemies get new behaviours at higher difficulties which makes sure you never feel "been there done that". The challenge is the game in such games.
Would love to see these games to learn from Nethack and other rogue likes.
Things like enemies using items they find lying around. (IE. Wand of Wonders you just dropped for being too dangerous to use.)
How many Diablo type games is that, with long-term gameplay centred on replaying chapters and farming and the like? For something like Dark Souls, I can agree that the replayability comes from playing the classes in the same setting and story, but for Diablo and CON and the like, random dungeons have definitely added interest. There are comparable games, RTA and BGDA2, that lacked the random dungeons and it did make replay a little more tired and predictable.
Sigfried1977
Legend
^Yeah, but this game here looks nothing like Diablo. I'm pretty sure the combat system isn't going to be a simplistic click fest where the environments don't mean jack, but an evolution of what Capcom did with Dragon's Dogma. In those kind of games the environments do matter an awful lot. They also didn't keep the game from having tremendous replay value.
Sigfried1977
Legend
Yeah, even in Diablo the story is so lame that you don't even notice it. Such games are never for the story, IMO. I had no idea in Demons SOuls either. its the ambience and the exploration andconquering the unknown !!! To be where no man has been before and slay what the mightiest gamer hasn't slain
But both Demon's Souls and Dark Souls have incredibly cool stories for gamers willing to divert their attention. The fact that the story telling wasn't in-your-face was probably the best part about it. You are just one more undead among many other, so no-one feels obliged to vomit pages upon pages of expository dialgue into your face. More often then not things just happen, whether you want them to or not.
True. But they are calling it a reading RPG, basing the dungeons on objects, memories and emotions. To some degree there should be story telling in the dungeons. Capcom's stories are often pretty crazy though. Dragon's Dogma was kind of impressive in how well it tied gameplay mechanics into the story.
Specifically like Diablo not really. For games with replaying chapters and farming and grinding, I've played the Disgaea games. It's random dungeons could never hold my attention, though luckily you were only required to play through a few of them when they were introduced. I just stuck to the story levels, and for replaying exchanged my character levels for higher base stats and go through the story again.
As for Dark Souls my first character has 110 hours on the clock, and I've not beaten the game with it. Most players beat it in around 50 hours for their first time through. In games like Dark Souls or Dragon's Dogma I often prefer to walk places even if there is a fast travel system available. You get a better sense of the world that way.
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