The Post-Processed Graphics Comparison Thread for The Order 1886 *beard split*

Status
Not open for further replies.
It's arguable that ACU is very impressive taking into account its scale, but if we're actually making judgements over the visual watertightness, what I've seen of The Order stomps on it and it's not even close. Partly because of what The Order doesn't do. Like have ridiculously obvious LOD. Or people cycling between clunky generic crowd animations. Or people popping hilariously between "standing on floor" and "standing on desk." That sort of thing.

If I had to pick one thing about ACU's rendering approach that kind of sucks* (aside from the obvious choice of the overall lack of dynamic lights, which is sort of justified given what the game is doing), it's shadowing. Very simple and has very little lighting awareness. The only shadow mapping that seems to happen is a single shadow from the Sun, with nothing but a conservative AO pass to mop up what's left; if you're a dynamic object in ACU, not being in direct sunlight poses an extremely high risk of making you look ungrounded.

*Since this is apparently a highly-demanded topic within the thread.
 
Last edited:
Post-FX.
Doesn't look the remotest bit like a real person to me. This does though...
TheOrder_006_1080.jpg

Disagree. She looks less impressive. The skin isn't scattering light far enough. I could get away with that look using a lambertian diffuse model. There is no sense of scattered light on the side of her face as a whole. AC:Unity may have gone a little overboard with the scattering though because it looks too waxy so it's not perfect either. Also in that shot, good god look at the blur affect in the background hiding a lot of details and giving the overall impression of realism. They definitely know how to fool the average Joe into thinking the game "feels" photorealistic. I'll give them that. But when you start to have a look assets at close inspection though, you'll see just as many flaws as you see in other games.

I completely disagree. I've seen people, myself included, walking around with pink ears and cheeks just like the above shot of Isabeau D'Argyll when it's cold. Victorian London, it's going to be single degree temperatures (C), and not much warmer indoorsl, and she won't be wearing make-up.

It's not that I'm saying there is no pink skin.. I'm saying it's too exaggerated to look real. On top of the knowledge that I know they used weight maps to fake the scattering around those areas.

1ExQsPp


That bothers me. His ears are too red in a lot of cases.
 
I dunno. No-one (Victorian London) had a tan back then because they didn't have holidays abroad or tanning salons, and the smog blocked out the sun even during Summer. Plus they drank a lot of port.

I don't see TO's faults any more or less so than AC:U's myself. Perhaps a lot depends on what one is used to seeing day to day? I do find TO's rendering of people (in stills) up there with the best of them, and I don't get that response from AC:U which looks fake to me. Ryse also had great people.

Also in that shot, good god look at the blur affect in the background hiding a lot of details and giving the overall impression of realism.
That's a Good Thing! In cinematography, you'd want to blur out the irrelevant background noise for a shot focussing on the people. In real life, you'd do that yourself. Crystal sharp backgrounds makes sense in VR or with eye-tracking, but in a 2D game if you want to control the fields of interest, you need to blur/darken/do something to the unwanted info. Duplicating the way photographers have managed this is a very sensible move, and hard to get right without artefacts. Last gen DOF and motion-blur was kinda crap. ;)
 
If we're talking about those 2 particular screenshots of female character models, I'd give it to TO1886 in a heartbeat. The lighting response is much more natural to my eyes overall, and the way that various details on the face couple with each other is vastly superior. Like, the TO1886 hair actually looks like hair growing out of skin, whereas despite ACU's decent hair shading, Elise's eyebrows look penciled on, and the eyelashes and main hair don't look particularly connected to her head (perhaps because the skin looks extremely low-passed while the hair is undersampled?).
 
It's arguable that ACU is very impressive taking into account its scale, but if we're actually making judgements over the visual watertightness, what I've seen of The Order stomps on it and it's not even close. Partly because of what The Order doesn't do. Like have ridiculously obvious LOD. Or people cycling between clunky generic crowd animations. Or people popping hilariously between "standing on floor" and "standing on desk." That sort of thing.

Everyone knows that the crowd system sucks in AC:Unity but that shouldn't detract from the overall environments and main characters and animation. Everything you listed here is about the NPCs. What about other things in the rendering pipe like PBR (which is arguably the main draw for the The Order's look)?

If I had to pick one thing about ACU's rendering approach that kind of sucks (aside from the obvious choice of the overall lack of dynamic lights, which is sort of justified given what the game is doing), it's shadowing. Very simple and has very little lighting awareness. The only shadow mapping that seems to happen is a single shadow from the Sun, with nothing but a conservative AO pass to mop up what's left;

You must not have played the Dead Kings.. Here just for you:



The Order is the same. That one lantern that you get which casts dynamic shadows. Everything else is baked except the Sun.

if you're a dynamic object in ACU, not being in direct sunlight poses an extremely high risk of making you look ungrounded.

It's more so in The Order (Galahad on wall).

The-Order_noAO_in_shadow.png



At least in AC:Unity for PC, you get away with HBAO+.

ACU-2014-11-24-01-13-18-24.png
 
If we're talking about those 2 particular screenshots of female character models, I'd give it to TO1886 in a heartbeat. The lighting response is much more natural to my eyes overall, and the way that various details on the face couple with each other is vastly superior. Like, the TO1886 hair actually looks like hair growing out of skin, whereas despite ACU's decent hair shading, Elise's eyebrows look penciled on, and the eyelashes and main hair don't look particularly connected to her head (perhaps because the skin looks extremely low-passed while the hair is undersampled?).

Agree.. AC:Unity skin shader is a bit too much. Which is why I chose Dying Light's SSS implementation over everything I've seen so far.

Better than the Order's female skin in that particular shot.

DyingLightGame-2015-01-27-22-46-49-48.png
 
People are seriously nitpicking about DoF now?:-?

It's not really the DoF I'm talking about. It's really hard to describe. It's like it's blurring on top of information that's already low res.

Here is a screenshot of a render we did of a teddy bear using a path-tracer and *real* hair primitives.. ;) with perfect DoF. Notice how you can still see details even when the asset is blurred.

teddybear_AI_003.jpg
 
So, might as well ask since. The PBR pipeline which is generally getting video games closer to CGI - do textures need to be specifically made for PBR? Or is it possible to also have procedurally generated textures that can interact properly with a PBR pipeline?

And my second question, I guess this is for VFX. In the CGI industry, you generally leverage some sort of 3D program to create the movie, when you encounter a scene where the program does not have the feature you're looking for is that where coders are called into create OpenGL modules there to be used?
 
I'd say they both have their high and low points. The Order does seem to win out on photorealism (although I'd argue it loses in that department to Alien Isolation) but it loses in terms of the sheer complexity of an open world game with hundreds of on screen NPC's.

It's tough to directly compare them for that reason.
 
For me, the faces in Ryse and The Order look much much better than in AC:U. But I never had the feeling that Ubi wanted photoreal characters in ACU anyways...
 
So, might as well ask since. The PBR pipeline which is generally getting video games closer to CGI - do textures need to be specifically made for PBR? Or is it possible to also have procedurally generated textures that can interact properly with a PBR pipeline?

PBR is a buzzword in gaming. It's the real thing in CGI. They are basically materials that are physically plausible. In order to be legitimately physically plausible, one must have a) lights that have area and b) the materials/lights must behave based on some probability. In gaming, they are just using the distribution model (i.e. the portion that describes the distribution of the material you are trying to mimic) with non-realistic lights (i.e. spot, point, directional) and no probability. Textures aren't used to achieve PBR. That's just art.

And my second question, I guess this is for VFX. In the CGI industry, you generally leverage some sort of 3D program to create the movie, when you encounter a scene where the program does not have the feature you're looking for is that where coders are called into create OpenGL modules there to be used?

They can yes. For example to create a custom lighting tool whereby it allows the artist to place and orient lights (in realtime) that represent what their scene is somewhat going to look like before actually rendering it. Some studios will make their own 3D program or tool that goes with the 3D program. It just depends, but they touch everything from real-time to crowds to FX to the renderer. Nothing is prohibited.
 
So, might as well ask since. The PBR pipeline which is generally getting video games closer to CGI - do textures need to be specifically made for PBR? Or is it possible to also have procedurally generated textures that can interact properly with a PBR pipeline?

A material as you see it is the sum of various interactions of light. For the computer and for simplicity we decompose this black-box transformation - there is no correct large scale light/surface interaction model which could be correct for all cases, there are only correct wave based light-surface interaction models on wavelength scale, particle pased light-surface interaction models are insufficient as well - we decompose it into a handful of the most important observable features and try to find an approximate formula which is sufficiently look-alike. It is totally not physically, arguably "based" on physics, but not on physical attributes, but instead observations of physical behaviour. For example specularity and specular color. The reasons lie in the atomic properties of the surface hit, of the interaction of light bouncing from atom to atom in a possibly mixed material/molecule, lightwaves enter the electric field of the atom and there is an enery exchange, light being an electric particle/wave and so on. But the specular maps don't contain lists of which atoms in which quantities and which arangements are hit. Instead the light-model-maker looked at observations of light-surface interactions (for example the fresnel curve is a plot of light surface-interaction showing the change in wavelength, amount of absorbtion and retro-reflection over the angle, that's a lot of stuff thrown into one value) on a very very large scale - millions of times larger than atomic scale, and thus totally "blurred" - and parameterized the formulas in such a way, that the observations (and not the causal attribute) can be fed, resulting in a plausible reproduction of observable material responses.
As such, all computer models, are not based on physical attributes, they are based on reproducing observations of the real world. And to be clear, all non-artistic models (Phong, Blinn-Phong, Oren-Nayar, Cook-Torrance, He, Ward, Stam, Ashikmin, Marschner, we can go on ...) are physically based. What distinuishes them is the scope of representable materials, and input data. For some the input data has to be trained with reference images because it's some fantasy representation, for some you can take measurements and use the data directly without anything else.
There are very few wave based models, He fe., most of them just invent something more or less senseful, Torrance invented the probabilistic based micro-surface based model, but's extremely far from physical reality, not so much though that it can't look believable.

Using the term PBR is meaningless, no scientist ever uses the term, it's more in the way of unstanding, than that it helps. If you think micro-surface models get's raytracers near reality, then you are mistaken. Only wavelength scale BSSRDFs can do that, BTFs could do that from shot to shot, but then BTFs are basically real-world captures over all parameters of a render equation.

Now to answer your question(s):
Utilizing more complex models in games helps trailing the even more complex models used in offline rendering, and using much more complex models helps trailing reality. When you model atoms and waves, then you do get imagery, which in fact, is real stuff. Let philosophy decide if atoms living in a computer and the ones outside, are the same "real" (is a simulation of reality less real than reality?).
And yes, you need to author specifically for one model or the other. Less often than more you can translate the data from one model to the other, because most models are not sub- or super-sets of another, pretty much every model has something another can't, so you can't translate it reliably all the time.
When the model is based on statistics and probability functions, then it's relative easy to invent a procedure to produce meaningful data, so that's very much possible. Other data inputs, especially the ones which require fitting to imagery, don't lend themselfs easily for procedual generation.

TL;DR: Yes, yes.
 
iVFiiGIbEH7J4.jpg


And this is the perfect example of what I am talking about - AC Unity looks gorgeous during cut scenes - attention to detail is unbelivable. But during gameplay - look at the textures, look at the objects - it is all simpilified and far from polished. And in the Order 1886 what you experience on the screen during gameplay is identical to cut scenes
That's because you're playing cutscenes in TO :LOL: It's true that TO is more consistent, however, at its best ACU is better than TO at its best.

Post-FX.
Doesn't look the remotest bit like a real person to me. This does though...
TheOrder_006_1080.jpg


If day-glo fake tan is your idea of realism, I can understand preferring that...
So fake. They look like rough plastic.

ilD4Jm6et1XtU.jpg



Somebody has a very strict moisturizing routing it seems.

It's arguable that ACU is very impressive taking into account its scale, but if we're actually making judgements over the visual watertightness, what I've seen of The Order stomps on it and it's not even close. Partly because of what The Order doesn't do. Like have ridiculously obvious LOD. Or people cycling between clunky generic crowd animations. Or people popping hilariously between "standing on floor" and "standing on desk." That sort of thing.
So you rate it as better not because it's pushing further but because it stumbles less than the other. That's to be expected when you do the bare minimum.

If I had to pick one thing about ACU's rendering approach that kind of sucks* (aside from the obvious choice of the overall lack of dynamic lights, which is sort of justified given what the game is doing), it's shadowing. Very simple and has very little lighting awareness. The only shadow mapping that seems to happen is a single shadow from the Sun, with nothing but a conservative AO pass to mop up what's left; if you're a dynamic object in ACU, not being in direct sunlight poses an extremely high risk of making you look ungrounded.

*Since this is apparently a highly-demanded topic within the thread.
Well, characters in TO lack shadows even in direct sunlight sometimes. Examples of this happen in the first hour of the game.

If we're talking about those 2 particular screenshots of female character models, I'd give it to TO1886 in a heartbeat. The lighting response is much more natural to my eyes overall, and the way that various details on the face couple with each other is vastly superior. Like, the TO1886 hair actually looks like hair growing out of skin, whereas despite ACU's decent hair shading, Elise's eyebrows look penciled on, and the eyelashes and main hair don't look particularly connected to her head (perhaps because the skin looks extremely low-passed while the hair is undersampled?).
Actually if you pay close attention the hair of the woman in TO's screenshot it's actually floating over her head. The hair isn't even worth mentioning when it's just a low detail lump of polygons with basic shading. This actually looks like hair:

iFrtWdN2MI2KP.png


It's not even close.

Doesn't that also depend on how shallow your DoF is?
Not really. Every single screenshot is blurry. Kinda defeats the point of being native 1920x800 in the first place.

So, might as well ask since. The PBR pipeline which is generally getting video games closer to CGI - do textures need to be specifically made for PBR? Or is it possible to also have procedurally generated textures that can interact properly with a PBR pipeline?
You need to use textures specific for PBR but they can be procedurally generated.

PBR is a buzzword in gaming. It's the real thing in CGI. They are basically materials that are physically plausible. In order to be legitimately physically plausible, one must have a) lights that have area and b) the materials/lights must behave based on some probability. In gaming, they are just using the distribution model (i.e. the portion that describes the distribution of the material you are trying to mimic) with non-realistic lights (i.e. spot, point, directional) and no probability. Textures aren't used to achieve PBR. That's just art.
Kinda. CryEngine uses image based lighting for the ambient lighting (diffuse and specular) which is basically empirically acquired light sources. No analytical ones though but recently DICE published a paper about the new features of PBR Frostbite and they do include both IBL (can be updated on a per-frame basis, oh yeah) and area lights (sphere, disk, tube) and both use physically based lighting units for maximum realism . I'm hoping they show off this at GDC.

Then again it's called "phsycally based rendering", not "physically exact rendering" so you have to give them so leeway :LOL:
 
Kinda. CryEngine uses image based lighting for the ambient lighting (diffuse and specular) which is basically empirically acquired light sources.

But those aren't sampled according to a statistical probability. It's just an encoded spherical harmonics (low res) with regular light probe lookups.

No analytical ones though but recently DICE published a paper about the new features of PBR Frostbite and they do include both IBL (can be updated on a per-frame basis, oh yeah) and area lights (sphere, disk, tube) and both use physically based lighting units for maximum realism .

And the area lights still won't be using multiple importance sampling and producing shadows that vary softness according to distance. However they are implementing it, it's not really physically "plausible" unless they cast rays according to some statistic. ;)
 
But those aren't sampled according to a statistical probability. It's just an encoded spherical harmonics (low res) with regular light probe lookups.
They're HDR cubemaps actually:

hdr_01_by_ocasm-d4fpvbm.png


And the area lights still won't be using multiple importance sampling and producing shadows that vary softness according to distance. However they are implementing it, it's not really physically "plausible" unless they cast rays according to some statistic. ;)
Oh yeah at least in Frostbite they're faking area shadows by basically blurring the hell out of them so no variable penumbra. Some guy modified the shader code in Crysis to produce variable penumbra shadows but Crytek didn't pick it up for their next engine iterations:

iLsxZsgWfYOnt.jpg

iRxJ5q9TyD0qQ.jpg
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top