XBox One, PS4, DRM, and You

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The idea that a gesture sensing camera, when it works, is somehow going to offer "innovative" new gaming experiences is false until proven otherwise.

Fiascos? NSA? Everything you wrote is simply opinion about what you think is not possible. And yet MS spent billions of dollars and two hours; one on broadcast tv and one at E3 to SHOW that there is a system which does make it possible.

Do I believe you? Or what I saw?

For a system that's "measurably better" in your parlance the games certainly look exactly the same on Xbox one. Hmm. So the idea of 6 extra cus will make you proud? Hahaha. You have shame from a video game console? Do you always buy the latest phones for fear of being shamed with something in your opinion lesser?

I think what you wrote is false until proven otherwise. If I get my hands on an Xbox one this year and can change my channels, pull up my guide and play destiny, watchdogs, the division, ryse, and titanfall at 1080p on my television, then your entire post will be wrong. Wrong in spirit and wrong in fact.
 
For the points being made that MS was making the Model T when consumers wanted a faster horse and better buggy whips.

Quite honestly all of this Xb1 is the Model T and PS4 is a faster horse and buggy seems like Ken Kutaragi saying something arrogant about the PS3. The Next Gen doesn't start till Microsoft says it does. :rolleyes:
 
Quite honestly all of this Xb1 is the Model T and PS4 is a faster horse and buggy seems like Ken Kutaragi saying something arrogant about the PS3. The Next Gen doesn't start till Microsoft says it does. :rolleyes:

Next gen wont start for at least another 5 to 6 years. At least not for consoles we are just getting the xbox 360 part 2 and the ps3 part 2.

For any arguing that we do not own, should not own

If you buy something digital with the terms given before purchase then yea you don't own it.

I was fine being able to buy a digital download and either pick it up in a store or download it depending on not only my download speed but also who had the best sale.

Of course now all the good featuers are gone and for DD I am stuck with only one option.


So of course thanks for that. I'm so glad you can sell your week old game that you paid $60 bucks for back to gamestop for $20. So glad you can do that. Good show.
 
Next gen wont start for at least another 5 to 6 years. At least not for consoles we are just getting the xbox 360 part 2

So not loading discs to play and the family sharing plan defines Next Gen ?

So of course thanks for that. I'm so glad you can sell your week old game that you paid $60 bucks for back to gamestop for $20. So glad you can do that. Good show.

You mean the same Gamestop that MS was going to do Used Game deals with ?? :oops:

It's not about Gamestop it's about losing a perceived right. Every other game system allows the consumer to enjoy the benefits of the first sale doctrine. Every other piece of media enjoys the same benefit. Why would a consumer give up that benefit ( how many decades old benefit ) for the ability to not have to switch discs to play a game or deal with a curiously byzantine family share plan. By all means invoke the Autocad decision and extrapolate that no game license can be sold used but WHY does the 360 get to do it ???? The gaming industrial complex is far bigger than Gamespot ... why haven't they sued Gamespot or Gamefly or people selling games on Craigslist.
 
I'm talking about the announced features of the xbox one that are now gone.


PSN , XBOX arcade , xbox indie , Steam , origin , ios , android do not have the benfit of first sale doctrine.

Netflix , Ultra voliet , hulu plus don't allow for the first sale doctrine.

People are willing to give it up to gain the benfits , everyone but console owners who are stuck in the past.
 
CBOAT never supported that rumour.

Actually I've been told he was the original source behind it (from someone who'd know firsthand lol)

In any case, the pastebin seems legit to me; I couldn't MS would let 10 people share their games with each other without some kind of catch (and the 60 minute demo makes perfect sense).

It's also definitely true that one of MS's priorities was reducing the value of used games.

Also, this is a truly spectacular about face by MS - few people realise that their original plans were for nothing to work when offline besides the network troubleshooter and Bluray playback (mandated by the Bluray spec), if you lost internet for more than 3 minutes while playing a game you would be booted to the network troubleshooter.

They seemed to have toned this down substantially to just a 24 hour online check in and now have completely done away with it.

Quite amazing to see internet furor accomplish something.
 
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Needs more drama :LOL:

LOL, no joke.

And I'm sure after reading that tirade, we can all see that Silenti is somebody who was really going to purchase a MS product but is just completely offended by the transition to digital media and that's why he protested so much.

Give us all a break. You look foolish.

We get it. You're pissed that MS was able to "get away with" selling on-line features as a service, rather than offering them for free. And then you watched Sony take the exact same course with the PS4.

We get it. We get that you and all your cronies saw MS's policies and were worried that if they were successful that Sony would have to implement the same policies and restrictions just as they did with multiplayer gaming and charging for PSN.

We get it. We get that your issue, and the issue of all those hundreds of thousands of millions of people that shouted so loudly that MS backtracked, has nothing at all to do with your desire, ability, or willingness to purchase the One. Because you were never going to buy one anyway. It has to do EVERYTHING with your collective fear that if MS actually went through with their plans and were successful, that Sony would follow suit.

In the mean time, what YOU don't get, is the fact that the console paradigm is not profitable. You can see that already. Last generation, we got the 360 that was the most powerful gaming system available upon launch. Even when it launched a year later, the PS3 was still superior to the vast majority of PC gaming platforms in service (at least according to Steam's demographics). This time around? The One and PS4 are launching with hardware that is ALREADY OUTDATED.

That alone should tell you where the console market is going. They can't sell loss-leading consoles and hope to make up profits on game sales alone (especially not as long as a used game market exists), they have to up-sell additional services and products in order to make up for the loss on the console, or they have to gimp the consoles, or both.

Both of these consoles are pieces of junk hardware wise. There is no "cell majik" happening this generation, there is no "multi-core" experience while PC's are all single threaded. Go to any PC forum and the PC gamers laugh at people thinking these consoles are offering anything new or exciting. The consoles haven't even launched yet and you can build a PC that is far more powerful than either of these, for equal or less money, right now. That wasn't the case when the 360 launched.

What you've done, by your "victory" is actually contribute to the death of consoles.

Congratulations.
 
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I'm talking about the announced features of the xbox one that are now gone.


PSN , XBOX arcade , xbox indie , Steam , origin , ios , android do not have the benfit of first sale doctrine.

What's bought in the Cloud stays in the Cloud

Netflix , Ultra voliet , hulu plus don't allow for the first sale doctrine.

Variation of the idea of a loan from a library.
People are willing to give it up to gain the benfits

Yup but many just want a better deal than MS was offering and I don't blame them.
 
What's bought in the Cloud stays in the Cloud



Variation of the idea of a loan from a library.


Yup but many just want a better deal than MS was offering and I don't blame them.

So i'm not getting the first sale doctrine then and digital media . The only difference on the xbox one the way it was before is this- A Downloaded game and a game on a disc are the same thing. The only difference is the delievery method. Most people were to dense to understand that it is the future and they are already doing it on all their devices and we will be doing it on the xbox one and ps4. Your already okay with doing it unless your going to try and tell me you never bought an xbox live or psn game ever.
 
LOL, no joke.

And I'm sure after reading that tirade, we can all see that Silenti is somebody who was really going to purchase a MS product but is just completely offended by the transition to digital media and that's why he protested so much.

Give us all a break. You look foolish.

We get it. You're pissed that MS was able to "get away with" selling on-line features as a service, rather than offering them for free. And then you watched Sony take the exact same course with the PS4.

Right I would rather pay twice a month to watch Netflix instead of only paying once to see it on PSN.... wonder why the PS3 does most of the Netflix streaming ... must be Horse and Buggy wanting luddites that should feel PRIVILEGED to pay MS to watch what they already payed for.

With the PS4 you pay for online gaming and nothing more.

In the mean time, what YOU don't get, is the fact that the console paradigm is not profitable. You can see that already. ... The One and PS4 are launch with hardware that is ALREADY OUTDATED. .... gimp the consoles
.....
....
What you've done, by your "victory" is actually contribute to the death of consoles.

Congratulations.

So it wasn't Gamespot that destroyed consoles it was people who complained about MS policies ?? If used games were actually destroying the business then Gamestop would have been sued for selling them otherwise no business. Publishers have always had the means to stop it and they haven't ... what do they know that you don't ??
 
For all those who have written too extensively and/or quickly for me to properly quote. For eastmen and blakjedi. Alphawolf and Scott_Arm. Throw in Cranky for good measure. I suppose I am the "whiner", the "forum warrior" "the one who was never going to buy it and now compains about Kinect". I am one of those whom you have extensively complained about that was party to getting MS to change it policy back to the" 1970's." For the points being made that MS was making the Model T when consumers wanted a faster horse and better buggy whips. Ms wasn't making the model T to my eyes. It was making the Corvair, the Edsel, the Smart Car.

For any arguing that we do not own, should not own, and should not be able to resell our own physical property, then kindly tell me why Gamestop is allowed to operate? How about Redbox? Ebay? Garage sales? Craigslist? No, don't guess, I will just give you this one for free. Hint, it is not a lack of an enforcement measure. As has been shown it is not a lack of legal backing. Pray tell, what do you think happens when Joe Sixpack, Molly Sprinkles and their 2.4 "whining, entitled, neogaf" children suddenly find out they are not allowed to buy or sell their used paperbacks, their movies, their video games? Those same people that are a large part of driving the demand only to be dismissed as morons. Because the instant that kind of enforcement is even attempted you can bet your shiny red ass that the time it takes to have those precious IP laws changed is going to be measured in weeks if not days. The SOPA outrage would look miniscule in comparison.

The suggestion that those of us who opposed MS's policies are a bunch of clueless whiners who understand nothing of the gaming industry is laughable on its face. The "forum warriors", the ten of thousands out of the millions and millions of people classified as gamers. We who attend or scramble to watch live watch events like E3, who claw around for youtube segments from the GDC, who frequent forums like Beyond 3d looking for informed opinions about hardware and software, about intent and direction and possibility. We are now apparently the uninformed morons who killed some great march into the future. We, the informed and involved consumer, the "vocal but meaningless minority" are now apparently the enemy of progress. In one breath the complainers are a bunch of clueless journalists who only use Apple products and the next we are luddites tossing our shoes into the digital machinary that represent the future.

MS held a launch party centered on an interactive overlay for live television.

MS had the balls to phrase the new restrictions on lending or trading games as some great new feature.

MS announced they will be granting publishers the option to "allow" us to trade or resell our games at the publishers discretion. How do we all feel about Ubisoft, EA, Activision and Sega having that kind of control? Always subject to change without notice of course. I would say how "we" feel about that possibility has been amply demonstrated.

It was MS who took a games console, decided that gamers will not be their core demographic anymore, and tossed us to the side now that we had served our purpose as a living room trojan horse.

MS attached an expensive, always on camera system that adds substantially to the system cost without an equivalent benefit to games. A successor to a camera system known for its useless and annoying nature when applied to gaming. One for which the few uses which have been shown are limited to small children or dance games. Do they think we have forgotten those painful reveals of actors on stage making absolute fools of themselves attemtping to throw a football or control a floating raft to pick up coins? The gaming community had already become skeptical and jaded regarding Kinect only to find out it is now required and always on. Just in time for the NSA to get held up as the best example for the conspiracy theorists to keep their tinfoil hats. Only months after arstechnica runs an article on hackers breaking into peoples laptops to use the camera for their own twittering mischief. (I am considering the microphone elements separately because they do have uses, demonstrated uses that work well, and it is a very minor portion of the cost of Kinect 2.0).

It was MS who announced that game rentals will not be available at launch. They did not trot out the CEO of Redbox to say its is coming, that details were being worked out, that games would be available for rental at x price. They did not announce a digital rental system with attendant pricing structure. They did not announce a Netflix like alternative for games. In fact, they had to be asked by a jounralist about this possibilty and replied with "That is a possibility." They did not even have the forethought to have something in the works and be able to state "It is coming."

It was MS who tried to sneak a more detailed press release about their used game policy out just days before E3 in hopes that signal would be lost in the noise of E3.

It was MS who failed utterly to bring front and center the 10 friends and access to your digital library feature to the forefront. Before we even get to whether or not that was actually going to take place in practice, and with what restrictions that were also probably to be left "up to the publishers" and "subject to change without notice".

It was a creative director at MS who told us to "deal with it" when the leaks were coming fast and hard about MS requiring an online connection to function. A connection that later was detailed to be a check in system whereby failure to connect every 24 hours would result in your video games becoming unplayable.

It was MS who said "Let them eat cake!". Excuse me, "We have a product for that, it's called the 360".

MS decided to they needed 8gb of RAM to support a slew of non-gaming centric social features, the result of which proved to be a system with a significant reduction in potential gaming centric performance.

It was MS who then priced their system at 500$. A full 100$ above and beyond their competitor. A competitor that has measureably better hardware.

It was MS who failed to show how their system would expand your ability to play games across platforms. There was no demo of title being played on the Xbox and then being paused only to instantly resume on another as you were forced to change screens.

It is MS who keeps simple services such as Netflix, Hulu, and Amazon Instant behind their paywall in yet another slimy attempt to force us into paying for Gold.

It is MS who has talked up their "Cloud" services as some great panacea for their basic hardware failure. Yet another buzzword for which they have demonstrated somewhere between little and no practical benefit to gamers. When they show something that has not been done before, then I will take notice. Until then it is another bullshit marketing term trotted out to confuse the uninformed.

MS could have announced that digital versions would cost less since you cannot resell them. Perhaps even stating that retail disc AAA games would be $60 at launch while the digital versions would be $40. MS could have introduced the head of a major publisher who would state "No more independent bullshit DRM, no more Bullshit added online or needless online multiplayer content designed to be a DRM in sheeps clothing." But MS didn't do that.

And no, if MS would have removed the mandatory Kinect, focused more on the games centric hardware and dropped the DRM requirements it would not have been a PS3. Then the differences would have come down to the games, the price(s), or which controller you prefer. The idea that a gesture sensing camera, when it works, is somehow going to offer "innovative" new gaming experiences is false until proven otherwise. It is false based upon the history to date and the complete lack of a live demonstration showing it making a game experience better. It is false because MS has spent all its consumer goodwill built up over the past 12 years in spite of fiascos like the RROD.

No I will not be forgetting what MS tried to do. Even after their policy 180. If I buy an Xbox One it will be with a trace of shame and small hope that no one I know see me with it.
I agree with the bolded parts -and one of them is something Microsoft got right to some extent, as focusing only on the core isn't the best option-.

In my honest opinion, the biggest piece of advice -I am no one to give advice but you get the idea- I can give you is that it's better to settle this and move on, Silenti.

We can safely assume that the people who didn't want the DRM were right, because they are a majority, and when so many people think that way, perhaps, just perhaps, they are right. Some of them didn't do that for a true benefit or cause, and wanted to complain, and probably never were interested in the console in the first place.

Most of the people that complained were posting about that every now and then, or every day. They were complaining more about the internet issue than they were actually affected by it. Those were fine in some cases, it was their actual opinion, but the entitled gamers that mocked and insulted others I can't empathize with.

Lastly, in regards to you, as I said there are many people and many journalists who are happy and think it is very good Microsoft listened and changed their drm policies, so you are basically in the right side of the coin now. It is definitely what MOST people wanted. Thus I would like to share an article with you, if it makes you feel better.

Time magazine wrote this:

http://techland.time.com/2013/06/20...ies-is-precisely-the-right-move-by-microsoft/

I am in the other side, I wanted a console like the one Microsoft planned, with a few touches here and there. I blame the decision to a last minute change on investors.
 
That's the same heart rending letter that was denounced as false because it came from pastebin and claims the family share plan was for glorified 45 minute demos.
 
That's the same heart rending letter that was denounced as false because it came from pastebin and claims the family share plan was for glorified 45 minute demos.
Ooh sorry, I will remove the link then. Some of the comments were rather odd, but others I agreed with. Thanks for clearing this up.
 
That's the same heart rending letter that was denounced as false because it came from pastebin and claims the family share plan was for glorified 45 minute demos.



Family Sharing is :

“It’s the console gaming equivalent to spotify and pandora” it was a social network within itself! The difference between the family sharing and the typical store demo is that your progress is saved as if it was the full game, and the data that was installed for that shared game doesn’t need to be erased when they purchase the full game! It gave incentive to share your games among your peers, it gave games exposure, it allowed old games to still generate revenue for publishers. At the present time we’re no longer going forward with it, but it is not completely off the table. It is still possible to implement this with the digital downloaded versions of games, and in fact that’s the plan still as far as I’m aware.

How is this not what people wanted with a shared plan ??
 
Family Sharing is :

How is this not what people wanted with a shared plan ??

Because:

This demo mode in most cases would be the full game with a 15-45 minute timer and in some cases an hour. This allowed the person to play the game, get familiar with it then make a purchase if they wanted to. When the time limit was up they would automatically be prompted to the Marketplace so that they may order it if liked the game.
 
Actually I've been told he was the original source behind it (from someone who'd know firsthand lol)

In any case, the pastebin seems legit to me; I couldn't MS would let 10 people share their games with each other without some kind of catch (and the 60 minute demo makes perfect sense)..

For what it's worth, Aaron Greenberg just completely denied this rumor on twitter. The family plan was NOT sharing demos and it was NOT limited to 60 minutes.

https://twitter.com/aarongreenberg/statuses/347911202057379840
 
So i'm not getting the first sale doctrine then and digital media . The only difference on the xbox one the way it was before is this- A Downloaded game and a game on a disc are the same thing. The only difference is the delievery method.

The difference in the XBOX 180 case is the policy applied to the disc/dd being the same.

Most people were to dense to understand that it is the future and they are already doing it on all their devices and we will be doing it on the xbox one and ps4. Your already okay with doing it unless your going to try and tell me you never bought an xbox live or psn game ever.

Again you confuse choice with "what everybody is doing". The PSN/Live games i have bought have (afaik) being exclusive DD games, like that Kinect Theater game, minecraft, and small random games. If i could i would most likely have bought the discs so i could keep them forever. I was not given the choice..

The future has been postponed, i think the positives more than outweigh your personal negatives.

Ohh and i am looking forward to Microsoft explaining why we can't share DD games like the promised, either something is fishy or their system has a fundamental flaw ...?
 
Actually I've been told he was the original source behind it (from someone who'd know firsthand lol)

In any case, the pastebin seems legit to me; I couldn't MS would let 10 people share their games with each other without some kind of catch (and the 60 minute demo makes perfect sense).

It's also definitely true that one of MS's priorities was reducing the value of used games.

Also, this is a truly spectacular about face by MS - few people realise that their original plans were for nothing to work when offline besides the network troubleshooter and Bluray playback (mandated by the Bluray spec), if you lost internet for more than 3 minutes while playing a game you would be booted to the network troubleshooter.

They seemed to have toned this down substantially to just a 24 hour online check in and now have completely done away with it.

Quite amazing to see internet furor accomplish something.

CBOAT's original post is up on GAF for anyone to see and it does not say anything about a down clock, it states there are issues with the ESRAM. People jumped to all sorts of conclusions when other people said they heard similar things but they went into much more detail about the alleged issues.
 
The person who writes like they poured a bunch of vulgar and misspelled fridge poetry magnets into a bag and dumped them out on the screen, Google translated it to Esperanto, then Bing translated it gibberish, then rubbed a cat on the keyboard, was misinterpreted?
 
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