Halo 4

[function]

Just got done playing the mammoth level again. Towards the start I died trying to drive through the first river in a warthog. So next time I got back on the mammoth, then watched 2 marine NPCs drive a hog through that same river completely and utterly unharmed. So I jumped off the mammoth and tried to claim the warthog - but the AIs drove off back through the river and I died trying to chase them on foot.

Next time I just stayed on the mammoth. At the set of 3 generators creating a shield blocking the mammoth's path (before the second AA gun), after killing everything I took a ghost and drove it along the road ahead of the mammoth to the second AA gun. At the second AA gun I climbed out of the ghost to use the targeting device, did not move at all, used the targeting device, then tried to climb back into the ghost I was stood next to but it had disappeared. After 3 seconds, while moving a distance of NOTHING the ghost had disappeared.

I continued, with tears of lamentation in my eyes for the fanchise once known as 'Halo'.

After taking out the second AA gun I took a warthog and tried to drive on to the control centre ahead of the mammoth. I died a couple of times trying to pass through the next couple of rivers. With some trial and error I managed to find a path through the first couple of rivers without dying (I forded them on the right where it's rocky - try it). Then on a stretch of safe road shortly afterwards the game took control away from me and made the Master Chief climb out of the Warthog, at which point the Warthog exploded for no reason.

This shit - and it is shit - would never have passed with Bungie.

You're taking a sandbox engine and retrofitting it for better graphics, then trying to pretend you still have the sandbox gameplay until someone tries to do something you haven't scripted for (how can you *not* expect someone to drive a Warthog down a fucking road?) at which point things disappear or some horribly, crudely enforced event (based on a bastardised rule from the original Bungie games) fingers you.

This is not Halo.This is not a game that is intended to be played to destruction in whatever manner you as a gamer (who enjoys the gameplay mechanics) deems enjoyable. This is a developer taking all the resources that allow a game to be made fun to replay 20 (or more) times over and instead allocating them into graphics that will only ever be most appreciated on the first play through.

This is a conscious decision. Whoever made these choices did so deliberately and with a calculator and is a most definitely a tech and not a gameplay person. Unless the power structure within 343 changes we will probably see more of this shit in the next Halo.

I'm thinking the disappearing weapons thing might be a memory issue. I vagely remember a Bungie dev talking about how you need to decide on this capability (persistent weapons) early on, incorporate it into your memory budget, and then stick to that memory budget. I'm thinking you're correct that 343 prioritized graphics over gameplay.

Yeah, I think it's a memory thing too. And after tonight's Mammoth Disappointment my Impotent Rage meter has just gone up from Grunt to Jackal!

Also, the flying section in the last level is one of the stupidest, most tedious, most uninspired aspects of the game (and a lot of the SP campaign feels uninspired). I mean seriously? This is all they could come up with for a flying mission? It's the most un-fun way to go about it.

Yeah, it not only plays badly (and suffers from all the usual 3D into the screen shooter issues) but then it turns into a really bad version of Rouge Squadron. I also had a couple of glitches where my ship would turn hard to the side and asplode into the wall, with nothing I could do to stop it. For some reason the variable covering pitch and/or yaw just went maximum to the right or down. Hands down it is the least enjoyable and most worthless level in the game.

The more I play Halo 4 the more I realise it's not really a Halo game as you know it. Kind of like, you're expecting a wolf, but it just turns out to be Pug wearing a nice looking wolf hat. Not that there's anything wrong with Pugs, it's just that they tend to derp where wolves would howl.

 

[RudeCurve]

Weapon balance? Yikes. I could write an essay on that too. I remember a bungie developer saying [paraphrase] "never make a weapon weaker - make other weapons stronger". Sticky grenade anyone?

Are you saying sticky grenades are weak? If you are then you don't know how to use them...

 

[NRP]

No, the grenades pretty much suck. It takes two plasmas to kill a banshee or a ghost. It only took one in previous games. It is hard enough to get one stick, but two is a bit too much to ask. It's more frustrating than fun.

 

[NotTarts]

No, the grenades pretty much suck. It takes two plasmas to kill a banshee or a ghost. It only took one in previous games. It is hard enough to get one stick, but two is a bit too much to ask. It's more frustrating than fun.

?

It took two in Halo Reach.

I've seen people saying it's too hard to kill vehicles, and others saying vehicle combat is ruined because they're too easy to kill. Which is it?

 

[Acert93]

People don't like change. Even if it is the same.

 

[Rangers]

I'm thinking the disappearing weapons thing might be a memory issue. I vagely remember a Bungie dev talking about how you need to decide on this capability (persistent weapons) early on, incorporate it into your memory budget, and then stick to that memory budget. I'm thinking you're correct that 343 prioritized graphics over gameplay.

there are sections i was amazed at the sheer amount of dead covenant bodies laying around, pretty much the whole ground being a mass of bodies that dont disappear, so i'm not sure what you guys are talking about. It didn't appear to be a technical decision (even though I recall people griping about it being one from before the game was out)

You're taking a sandbox engine and retrofitting it for better graphics, then trying to pretend you still have the sandbox gameplay until someone tries to do something you haven't scripted for (how can you *not* expect someone to drive a Warthog down a fucking road?) at which point things disappear or some horribly, crudely enforced event (based on a bastardised rule from the original Bungie games) fingers you.

This isn't an intrinsically bad decision, and linear games are not morally inferior to sandbox ones. In fact sandbox games are definitely the minority/less popular ones.

You still have wide open areas and you can take on enemies in many ways compared to most FPS. I mean, the very level you're griping about is a massive expanse where you have a jetpack, are aboard a 40 foot tall tank surveying a vast landscape, and can go wherever you want.

I guess it's like people bitching about Crysis 2 for being too linear, when it's in the 10% of least linear FPS probably. Makes sense.

It does feel like perhaps another step down the linear/open continuum for Halo, just as Reach before it. But not a huge one, to me.

Also like how the menus are, Reach's UI was so unintuitive it was a fricking embarrassment, I mean seriously it made me angry. This game actually has menus that arent retarded, and it doesn't take you an hour to anything from a menu like Reach (EG, minutes long loads to do anything at all, even start a campaign level)

 

[Scott_Arm]

Reach's menuing UI was a huge pile of dog shit, for sure.

I'm finding this thread pretty interesting, seeing incredibly different views of the same thing. I've seen many people say the game is a return to the "sandbox" of Halo 1, and now some people are saying it is too linear. I never really considered Halo a sandbox game to begin with, but this whole discussion is interesting to say the least. I don't even really like Halo all that much, but this thread is entertaining.

 

[Rangers]

It's probably a guided sandbox or whatever ala Crysis.

I do feel Halo has slowly become more linear and less open, but this game wasn't a huge step that direction, more of another incremental small one, that started with Bungie.

 

[NotTarts]

It's probably a guided sandbox or whatever ala Crysis.

I do feel Halo has slowly become more linear and less open, but this game wasn't a huge step that direction, more of another incremental small one, that started with Bungie.

Halo has never been as open as the first Crysis. The earlier levels of Crysis had things like secondary objectives that you could complete to glean more information about the story. I wish there were more games like that.

 

[Gerry]

I've just recently played the Halo Anniversary edition and, ya know, Halo wasn't exactly that open to begin with. I think it was just the scale of some of the levels that gave the impression of openness when in reality you were always being guided to specific destinations via a specific route.

 

[function]

there are sections i was amazed at the sheer amount of dead covenant bodies laying around, pretty much the whole ground being a mass of bodies that dont disappear, so i'm not sure what you guys are talking about. It didn't appear to be a technical decision (even though I recall people griping about it being one from before the game was out)

The disappearance of weapons and bodies will probably be governed by how much memory is available. There's probably a first in first out thing going on. Bigger things like vehicles disappearing from around you might be scripted in the editor.

There may be areas where covenant bodies stay around, but that doesn't mean there aren't areas where a reduced capacity to handle entities doesn't rear its ugly face.

This isn't an intrinsically bad decision, and linear games are not morally inferior to sandbox ones. In fact sandbox games are definitely the minority/less popular ones.

But pretending your game is doing one thing then letting the facade slip in a very horrible way isn't good.

You still have wide open areas and you can take on enemies in many ways compared to most FPS. I mean, the very level you're griping about is a massive expanse where you have a jetpack, are aboard a 40 foot tall tank surveying a vast landscape, and can go wherever you want.

It might seem like that if you play the game as they hope you will, but if you test the limits of "Return to Battlefield" you'll find that the areas aren't that big (compared to Halo 1, 2, 3) and that you're controlled as to which areas of the level you're allowed to be in and what you're allowed to take where. And the last bit is very crudely done.

 

[function]

I've just recently played the Halo Anniversary edition and, ya know, Halo wasn't exactly that open to begin with. I think it was just the scale of some of the levels that gave the impression of openness when in reality you were always being guided to specific destinations via a specific route.

You're almost always forced along a specific route, but the amount going on in the areas, your ability to backtrack and your ability to take things like vehicles where they wouldn't typically go gives you the ability to mix things up, experiment and have some crazy co-op fun.

I've recently done a legendary co-op run of CE, 3, ODST and Reach in preparation for halo 4.

I liked taking Warthogs into structures In Halo 1, really enjoyed dicking around on the Mongoose in Halo 3 (you can take that thing just about anywhere) and also got a perverse pleasure from the forklift truck in Reach. You can also easily build up a squad of 6 ~ 8 or even 10 marines in Halo in Halo 3 and then try and shepherd them through a level, giving them weapons and driving a multi vehicle posse of death (often yours).

The thing is, the "vanilla" playthroughs don't take much time. And that's probably all most people want (like the people who don't see what Halo 4 is missing). But 90% of my playtime on the Halo games (and it's hundreds of hours in campaign) is not just doing the most obvious stuff in the most obvious order. Bungie knew very well that they were making games for people le me, but so far I'm not sure that 343 do.

 

[Laa-Yosh]

Yeah we all remember the Warthog jump videos and the crazy places people were able to get to in the Silent Cartographer and Assault on the Control Room levels and so on.

Your observations are interesting and it's sad that the game fails so often...
Hopefully 343 will bring the freedom back on more powerful hardware, where the need to squeeze every bit of graphics performance won't be as strong. I can understand the decision to push the visuals with this game, at this point it was the right way to go and keep interest in the game high. First day sales justified this decision IMHO, but it also seems that their community guys pay very close attention to fan reactions. Frankie O'Connor is quite the regular at the GAF forums, for example.

And on the other hand almost every silly little thing I tried worked so far - backtracking for DMR ammo in missions 4 and 5, finding alternate routes on top of tree trunks in the first part of chapter 4, taking a Ghost through structures in chapter 3, shooting Banshees with the Incinerator cannon...

 

[N_B]

They focused on the important things, the core Halo experience - the vehicles, weapons, AI, physics, and player choice. The sandbox is smaller, but it is still a sandbox and it is still Halo. I think people are focusing too much on minor elements and losing sight of what the core Halo things the game does well.

 

[nightshade]

Having an open area does not means it's a sandbox.
Beside majority of the levels in Halo games are indeed corridor based, sometimes they are interconnected to larger areas which is used for traversing purpose rather than you being given an open area to decide how to play and approach your objective.


Also does anyone else absolutely hates the Warthog's engine sound ?
It sounds like an RC car rather than a 4x4, very annoying.

 

[NRP]

People don't like change. Even if it is the same.

But it's not the same. You can't even pick up grenades from dead bodies in MP initially. You have to "unlock" that ability. Some braniac at 343 probably said "Hey! Let's make it an unlock! Unlocks are cool, right? Every other game has them!" Nevermind that it totally breaks Halo's golden triangle (weapons, grenades, and melee). It's little nuances like this show up in glaring ways to some of us.

 

[Laa-Yosh]

Halo 1 had a lot of corridors and smaller closed space 'arenas' for the fights.

The 'sandbox' in its case is that you're still free to decide about tactics, weapons and other tools, engagement distance and so on. Even on the first level there are many possible ways to approach any of the combat situations.

It's never been a sandbox in the way GTA 4 is, where you can wonder in a huge open area and find stuff to do...

 

[warb]

Feel better about 4 after legendary single player. Appreciating the Promethean Knights more.

Banshee is useless, destroyed the instant you take control. Weapons disappearing is still bad. It pushes you to stick with the same safe combination throughout.

 

[Laa-Yosh]

Yeah I was hating the Banshee part in chapter 6 too. After a lot of deaths I still wrecked two of them while destroying the plasma cannons and the other Banshees. Decided to go on foot and incinerate elites, was even more fun than using the fuel rod cannon from the air because I got to see the resulting disintegrations from up close

 

[RobertR1]

I think I'm close to the end and I've enjoyed the campaign.
For me:

Halo: CE
Halo 3
Halo 4
Reach
Halo 2
Odst