Games & input lag.
- Thread starter Mr Deap
- Start date
grandmaster
Veteran
Yes, you'd need to run several tests over different games. What camera did you use? Do you have any way of ascertaining the lag in your display?
While we're at it, can any one recommend a cheapo 720p60 camera? I'm thinking of something in the price range of the Kodak Intro Zi6 (around £100). I'd very much like to add response measurement to the tests we do at Digital Foundry.
While we're at it, can any one recommend a cheapo 720p60 camera? I'm thinking of something in the price range of the Kodak Intro Zi6 (around £100). I'd very much like to add response measurement to the tests we do at Digital Foundry.
Last edited by a moderator:
Something is a bit off here, since I would've heard countless complaints about this now, particularly that the PS3 version is primarily used in tourneys (more players owning sticks on the console).
Surprising nonetheless.
50ms is completely unacceptable in music games, but the key is that it indeed can be calibrated out. If you're playing by ear (i.e. timing your hits to the sound of the music, not to the bar crossing the thingy on the screen and more-so the visual feedback of it exploding when you hit something), which you should be, then it works perfectly fine.
Of course sections where there is direct feedback (i.e. drum solos) from what you're playing are unplayable, but for that reason they rarely affect gameplay.
Note that in most games though, the concept of "calibration" is not an option as the feedback loop is bidirectional. The reason it works in music games is because it's effectively a unidirectional feedback loop, and if your UI is lagged a bit (with respect to whether you "got it right"), it's not a huge deal. It would be a huge deal in an FPS or similar though.
If these measurements are valid, and we assume that the PS3 is justly preferred with sticks for tournament play, then we can probably conclude that the extra frame of lag in the PS3 version is due to the PS3 wireless controller using Bluetooth, while MS uses a proprietary wireless communications device. The PS3 sticks wouldn't be affected if they're connected via USB (like my VSHG). I recall that MS claimed that one reason that they went with their own wireless technology instead of Bluetooth was because Bluetooth had unacceptable lag for a gaming controller. Sony retaliated by saying that they had developed a low-latency Bluetooth implementation for the PS3 and its controllers. I was always curious to see if there was any practical difference between the two systems' wireless controller technologies. This is the first such test I've seen. Keep up the good work!
You could be right. Come to think of it, even pad players have the controller connected to the system via USB, so there wouldn't be a detectable difference. The controllers do sync A LOT faster when connected to the system.
Fighters and music games are about the only two genres that get affected with this. There is also the HDMI induced lag with PS/PS2 games on the PS3 that's noticeable again for fighters and music games, but that's another matter.
Fighters and music games are about the only two genres that get affected with this. There is also the HDMI induced lag with PS/PS2 games on the PS3 that's noticeable again for fighters and music games, but that's another matter.
Last edited by a moderator:
There are indeed other value, which I didn't demonstrate. The wireless XBOX 360 controller isn't lag free. I presume that this one deliver around 16 or 33ms of lag. I played so much with my wired controller that the joystick was trash & was good for garbage(3 year of hardcore usage).
Also HDTV panel deliver lag too which isn't helpful either shown in the thread.
The lowest you can get on the market is 16ms of lag via HDMI & popular model such as the Sony & Samsung lag of 33ms via HDMI in native resolution & game mode.
33ms indeed is hardly detectable, but most people actually experience 66ms of lag if they play on game mode which not everyone use.
If anyone up to the live experience at home & try an OLD CRT SDTV with the controller plug on the USB, expect quite some tight control.
Iron Tiger
Regular
I think ever since I conditioned myself against it in the Xbox version of Burnout, I haven't been able to notice input lag unless it's been extreme. The Killzone demo was one of those extreme instances, and last weekend I played the demo of that new pinball game on PSN, and also felt it to be laggy. I play on a Samsung LN46A650, and generally prefer to play with prettier IQ than in the "lag-free" Game mode, but in those rare instances, I have little choice but to give up the pretty.
Tests of some of the lower end BRAVIA models (W series) ones pegged it at 17-33ms. All manufacturers typically just list 33ms, and I must note that Samsung sets have improved immensely from what they had 4-5 years ago
Surely you meant 66ms if game mode isn't use, right? I use that mode and turn off any other post processing on my nearly 2 year old XBR4. Even TV or movie sources.
But you brought up an interesting point, because I was shocked to learn that there are so many people out there who actually use the 120Hz mode and don't even detect the lag. Not only was the lag awful when I tried it on my set, the motion artifacts were unacceptable.
I guess this will be a thing of the past one day.
My experience has been somewhat limited to the issue, but I'll share regardless. I wish I knew the model of the TV, but it's a Sony SXRD rear projection 65". Played on a 360 hooked up with either HDMI or component. The TV itself is a first generation, and so for being a 1080p set, it doesn't have any 1080p inputs (only 1080i). It has a game mode, but it's only accessible if the input is 480i. Here's what happened.
Game: Guitar Hero 2
1080i was really weird for playing the game. Lag calibration was anywhere from 80-120MS. Calibrating was completely worthless as the latency seemed to have changed on a per frame basis.
720p, I reset the game to 0ms and played normally again.
At that time, I wasn't aware of HDTV input lag. The thing that really irks me about all of this is reviews on TVs don't touch on the issue. It's really not that hard to load up Guitar Hero on an Xbox 360 and run the calibration test a few times per input setting.
Game: Guitar Hero 2
1080i was really weird for playing the game. Lag calibration was anywhere from 80-120MS. Calibrating was completely worthless as the latency seemed to have changed on a per frame basis.
720p, I reset the game to 0ms and played normally again.
At that time, I wasn't aware of HDTV input lag. The thing that really irks me about all of this is reviews on TVs don't touch on the issue. It's really not that hard to load up Guitar Hero on an Xbox 360 and run the calibration test a few times per input setting.
The visual feedback thing for me is a big deal. I'll fail out of fast songs if there's any amount of detectable lag. My friend is very good and it's the same for him. It's funny to watch him it eat at the mercy of his 52" LCD
. But heck even my aunt who wouldn't know an Xbox from a shoebox mentioned that something was "wrong" when she was tapping the mike during the instrumental solos.When we get together for some Rock Band we always end up dragging in the old CRT.
Curiously do you play an actual instrument? I play Rock Band the same way I play real instruments: you read the music ahead, translate it in your mind into what you're going to play, and then play it in time with the music. My wife does the same, but she also plays "real" instruments. For the most part, if you know the part you should even be able to play with your eyes closed
I've actually never understood how people can play primarily visually, trying to react to pressing buttons as things cross bars... different skill I guess, but I find it *much* easier to just play along to the music rather than try to time things visually
Nah, no real instrument here. One of my friends is a real drummer and he has the same problems.
I wouldn't say we play primarily visually but the visual feedback surely plays a key role. Honestly I know I'm at my best when I'm syncing with the music but the awkward delayed response on the screen throws me off.
Question: Is is normal for the TV to delay the sound to sync it with the picture? I would guess no but I've been wrong before :smile:
I wouldn't say we play primarily visually but the visual feedback surely plays a key role. Honestly I know I'm at my best when I'm syncing with the music but the awkward delayed response on the screen throws me off.
Question: Is is normal for the TV to delay the sound to sync it with the picture? I would guess no but I've been wrong before :smile:
Interesting. Neither myself nor any of the other drummers that I know had a problem with the visual aspect - you're trained to play by the sound anyways and once you get over the first few hours of being able to "read" the music in little blocks, the drums are similar enough that most of the skills apply directly to Rock Band.
The "fills" are really annoying when they are desynced (audio-wise), but you can kind of avoid playing much there, or just play the "lower attack" drums like the toms and it's much less annoying.
My TV does, although it also has a "game mode" where the lag is much lessened! Through my receiver (which is what I use now that I have it - so awesome
) there's an option to configure a delay, which I of course leave at 0. That said, there's still a subtle amount of latency in both the audio and video which needs to be calibrated out.Still, even on a CRT I notice audio latency - there's enough latency going through the 360 audio path even that if you're a drummer playing a fast beat in the "drum trainer", you'll notice it even on the fastest setups. (i.e. it's not a usable replacement for a low-latency electronic drum brain.)
It's possible we've simply had really bad luck with TVs, but we're definitely not imagining it. To be fair the real drummer seems to have less of an issue with it than the rest of us.
My TV does, although it also has a "game mode" where the lag is much lessened! Through my receiver (which is what I use now that I have it - so awesome
Yep we run it through a receiver too, and the delay is set at zero. And yeah there's still a little delay with the audio, but not game breaking like the delay to the TV is.
I am very sensitive to lag. I'm pretty good at Halo but I can't buy a kill when playing on an LCD. The HD CRT will be with me for a long time I fear, or until I can afford a Samsung or a Sony
.I am very sensitive to lag. I'm pretty good at Halo but I can't buy a kill when playing on an LCD. The HD CRT will be with me for a long time I fear, or until I can afford a Samsung or a Sony
To be perfectly honest, if my older CRT was a widescreen one (it was 1080i though), I don't think I would've bothered with a new TV. No lag, and the best black levels are still only available on a CRT.
I'm adding both wireless PS3 controller(33ms)+HDTV lag(33ms) which is 66ms in total. You can clearly see in the video that the character doesn't start to move from more than 50ms(4 frames) for sure.
The Newer Samsung B series lag of 50ms (A series 33ms)in game mode using HDMI according to some test made on AVSforum.
The games can have V-sync(or anything would provide delay within the game itself) which could worsen the overall experience.
Yeah audio through the TV was never a good situation for me either, but the receiver is quite usable. FWIW I have a Samsung 4669 and while there's definitely some video lag, it's not too terrible on "game mode" (I'd estimate less than 30ms), and I'm quite able to play high-paced PC FPSes quite competitively even with a wireless mouse (Logitech G7 - only usable gaming wireless mouse IMHO) and the output going through the receiver and to the TV via HDMI. It could always be better of course, but it's already almost as good as my more dedicated gaming setup (PC, wired G5, fast PC LCD, etc).It's possible we've simply had really bad luck with TVs, but we're definitely not imagining it. To be fair the real drummer seems to have less of an issue with it than the rest of us.
I am very sensitive to lag. I'm pretty good at Halo but I can't buy a kill when playing on an LCD. The HD CRT will be with me for a long time I fear, or until I can afford a Samsung or a Sony
BTW I've also tried plugging speakers directly into the 360 and while this is definitely the lowest latency option, even then I can notice some subtle audio lag when playing fast beats in the trainer.
Similar threads
