360-to-PS3 Ports: Why the Lowered Texture Resolution?

[Fafalada]

Someone else also mentioned resolution in reference to how much memory ideally is needed,

I only mentioned resolution in reference to ideal scenario (ie. 1:1 texel coverage, which typically never happens in real-world outside of contrived scenarios).
So no, I don't think it's dramatically important, because it's not even a real visual target anyway, just useful as a measuring stick.

Software solutions help, but I think we're still at the point where we just need more memory available to avoid visual fidelity loss.

Given this discussion isn't likely to be settled on any data proof, I'll just opt to agree to disagree here. I haven't done nearly the amount of work to claim expertise like some commercial projects have in this field, but I have done enough to know the concept can work - even in its simplest forms (eg. paging maps simply by their required mip-levels).
8 years back I remember I've had similar discussions with people arguing over paging of textures from PS2 main->VRam, which really works on very similar principles if you want it done well. It seemed so obvious (I've seen savings of up to 10x on the bandwith) and people still argued against it.

But yea - if you want to truly exploit temp coherency - you have to make concessions on the data-structures, which does seem counter intuitive I suppose (since afaik most streaming systems try to pack data in ways that are closest to what HW will consume, and this actually requires the oppostite).

I am not debating the usefulness of more memory btw - just that there's still a lot we can do with what is actually available.

 

[MazingerDUDE]

Uncharted decided to sacrifice texture variety for better visual appeal in a given area.

I wonder if you could name me a single example of 360 game that has texture level of Uncharted with more variety.

One of the most well textured game I could think of is the Gears of War, but it still has lesser quality/variety and even less color of textures at any given place.

Not to mention that it has way more texture pop ups.

Uncharted has texture pops only at the beginning of the stage, and it's certainly nothing compared to what you see in games like Mass Effect.

Also Uncharted's texture pop is more to do with slow reading speed of BluRay, as you see no texture pop in demo.

 

[catisfit]

I wonder if you could name me a single example of 360 game that has texture level of Uncharted with more variety.

Agree with the point of your post (without wanting to get drawn into a platform argument). I don't know where this "variety" argument comes from, if Uncharted was reusing textures too much it would be painfully obvious, even more so in a jungle setting than in some futuristic corridor shooter. The screen being predominantly green/brown is more a question of art direction than texture variety (or in other words, there's a variety of green ).

Of course that's not to mention the jetski levels, which feature rapid movement between areas with distinctive texturing requirements.

 

[TheBlackLodge]

Of course that's not to mention the jetski levels, which feature rapid movement between areas with distinctive texturing requirements.

I'd replay that section again if I where you.......

 

[catisfit]

I'd replay that section again if I where you.......

In comparison to the usual speed of progression through environments in the game

 

[Arwin]

I liked Uncharted for having so few textures being reused. Almost any significant piece of surface seems to have its own (very hi-res) texture. Even in areas that look the same (e.g. wet rocks in the jungle and floor surfaces etc.) I see extremely little re-use of textures.

 

[TimothyFarrar]

Which games use virtual texturing? I've never worked on one before, nor do I know people who have so I'm curious to see what it looks like in action in a real game.

You haven't seen the id5 tech demo? Seems like its going to work quite well for them.

 

[Mintmaster]

Quick refresher: 720P < 1Mpix, 1byte per compressed texel at 180 MB gives roughly a 180:1 ratio of texels to output pixels. Now take into consideration that you can only see 1/6 of the full 360 deg view at a time, still 30:1 ratio of texels to output pixels. Throw in overdraw at 3x (for what is both on and off screen), now down to 10:1 ratio of texels to output pixels. Point being that virtual texturing can easily work without a tremendous amount of memory.

If you have the ability to zoom in 4x, that another factor of 16. If you have angled surfaces with AF enabled, that's another factor of up to 16. If you want to use spherical harmonics for really nice precomputed but semi-dynamic GI, you need several coefficients. If you want to use volume textures for some techniques, this whole method goes out the window. Have teleportation ability or fast motion, and more RAM is needed. Etc, etc...

I wonder if you could name me a single example of 360 game that has texture level of Uncharted with more variety.

You're missing the point. We started along this line of discussion when Faf made a suggestion about the theoretical limits. joker454 is effectively saying Naughty Dog could have done even better if they had more RAM.

 

[TimothyFarrar]

We will always need more RAM

For the skeptics on virtual texturing on current generation of haha "memory constrained" consoles, I guess you will just have to wait for Rage. My bet is that it is going to work quite well indeed.

 

[djskribbles]

i believe this whole discussion goes back to why PS3 games have inferior textures. not whether or not Uncharted could have had better textures with more ram (which is most likely true), but thats kind of beside the point. this whole argument stemmed from someones comment of if Uncharted has some of the best textures, why can't others at least have decent textures.

 

[Nesh]

i believe this whole discussion goes back to why PS3 games have inferior textures. not whether or not Uncharted could have had better textures with more ram (which is most likely true), but thats kind of beside the point. this whole argument stemmed from someones comment of if Uncharted has some of the best textures, why can't others at least have decent textures.

Well I think Uncharted had some of the best textures this generation regardless of platform. I cant see a reason why should anyone want more ram because its textures were supposedly not good enough

 

[djskribbles]

Well I think Uncharted had some of the best textures this generation regardless of platform. I cant see a reason why should anyone want more ram because its textures were supposedly not good enough

agreed.

 

[Tisan]

For the skeptics on virtual texturing on current generation of haha "memory constrained" consoles, I guess you will just have to wait for Rage. My bet is that it is going to work quite well indeed.

My apologies for derailing the thread a little, but I couldn't find a definition of virtual texturing (perhaps my google-fu is weak) except for a 3dlabs presentation back in 1999 (pdf link).
If I understand it correctly (they were talking about HW controllers for this, which I'll get to in a minute) it's about splitting a texture into many smaller squares and only loading those in the field of view, hence lowering memory usage and bandwidth spikes. Assuming this is still what you guys were referencing:
Is this still something which requires hardware support? If so, is it something which is in this generation of consoles?
If it can be done purely through software is it a method which is widespread in it's use? It looks to be highly efficient to my untrained mind, and seems ideal for consoles as the time taken to load larger and larger levels into larger memory skyrockets. Perhaps such a method would require a HDD install?

Thanks for any clarification, and if this is out of line for the boundaries of this discussion, my apologies.

(As a side note, if my assumption is correct, all of a sudden megatexture makes sense to me. I always thought it worked on pixiedust and rainbows )

 

[Neb]

I cant see a reason why should anyone want more ram because its textures were supposedly not good enough

To put high res-textures outside the player designated path-line?

 

[FirewalkR]

To put high res-textures outside the player designated path-line?

Or to put even higher-res textures in the player designated path-line!

 

[Neb]

Or to put even higher-res textures in the player designated path-line!

Heh true but to a certain resolution only as I'm not sure it would be benfitial or even look right if the res is 720p.

 

[Laa-Yosh]

Is this still something which requires hardware support? If so, is it something which is in this generation of consoles?

John Carmack of id software has already implemented it in id's Tech5 engine for their upcoming game Rage; and it'll be available for PS3, X360, PC and Mac platforms. AFAIK it's available for

If it can be done purely through software is it a method which is widespread in it's use?

Yeah, and it should run on DirectX 6 or 7 level hardware, too, so it could theoretically be implemented on many paltforms. There are various university papers available, search around in B3D's coding and tech forums to find threads about it with tons of info and links.

It looks to be highly efficient to my untrained mind, and seems ideal for consoles as the time taken to load larger and larger levels into larger memory skyrockets.
Perhaps such a method would require a HDD install?

It'll run without an HD on the X360. However there are some other limits and such about it so don't expect it to become the standard too soon.

(As a side note, if my assumption is correct, all of a sudden megatexture makes sense to me. I always thought it worked on pixiedust and rainbows )

Megatexture was a more simple version of this idea, constrained to the terrain around the player's point of view; Rage is far more advanced.

 

[TimothyFarrar]

My apologies for derailing the thread a little, but I couldn't find a definition of virtual texturing (perhaps my google-fu is weak) except for a 3dlabs presentation back in 1999 (pdf link).

Virtual texturing = mega texturing.

 

[V3]

Is Carmack's Megatexture better and faster compare to other texture streaming implementation like say Uncharted engine for example ?

 

[Vitaly Vidmirov]

when I inadvertently see a fellow 360 graphics dev single step debugging hlsl code, and it will make me green with envy.

Hehe. So it is better for you. You will read raw RSX microcode but he will only know how to press "Step" button