"Yes, but how many polygons?" An artist blog entry with interesting numbers

[nightshade]

Well that's quite high.
I am pretty sure that they could've managed to do with much lesser amount of poly budget for face & still managed to get the current look. And those polygons could've helped a lot for the rest of the body. I mean RE5's cutscene models are just 20K, though they obviously don't have as much hair as in FF13 but it still manages to look a lot better to me.

What da' ya think ?

 

[Laa-Yosh]

The main girl character has very different hair then the RE5 protagonists.
And there are many close-ups of the faces with lots of facial animation that seemed quite high quality to me... that's what you need more polygons for.

 

[nightshade]

Well yea it did look a lot different type of hair to me, as for facial expression; I thought RE5 cutscenes were phenomenal in that part

 

[KKRT]

http://hiphopgamershow.ning.com/profiles/blogs/gow-3-is-game-of-the-year-can
In about 6 minute of the video they are showing Kratos and Hades modelling.
Kratos has 22k polygons.

 

[KKRT]

At 54 minute they are showing titan climbing scene and geometry behind.

Ps. Sorry for double post, but still cant edit.

 

[marcus_rocks]

http://hiphopgamershow.ning.com/profiles/blogs/gow-3-is-game-of-the-year-can
In about 6 minute of the video they are showing Kratos and Hades modelling.
Kratos has 22k polygons.

where? broken link?

 

[Trejser]

where? broken link?

http://hiphopgamershow.ning.com/profiles/blogs/sony-gow-3-couldve-looked-even

 

[nightshade]

So I was discussing with my friend (who happens to be a 3D artist & is currently outsourced for an Ubisoft project for PC), and he seemed to have a hard time swallowing the fact that there are games with 30k polygon or more dedicated to a single character. He mentions that it's not just consoles but even a PC will chug while rendering a 30k character in real time. Being the usual self that I am I used Drake from UC2 as an example & linked him to This where Rich Diamant specifically mentions the polygon count. But he still seems to not agree with it.

My question is...Is it really that hard to believe (I'm not a 3D artist) that the PC's or even consoles can have 30k polygon or more dedicated towards a single character & still work smoothly along with everything ?

 

[Neb]

My question is...Is it really that hard to believe (I'm not a 3D artist) that the PC's or even consoles can have 30k polygon or more dedicated towards a single character & still work smoothly along with everything ?

PC wont chug, dunno where he got that from. There are quite some games with characters around 20-30k and also some beyond that. CM10.x for HL2 series has main characters of 70-135k polygons (Alyx model 100-130k) and citizens/general people/some monsters around 30-50k. And that is single pass barebone mesh numbers (I posted some screenshots with mesh info debug some pages back). CM characters also sport quite a lot of bones for animations and soft flesh.

And then games with tesselation support would most likely have polygon numbers that would make CM characters look "low-poly"! :smile:

 

[Laa-Yosh]

Games today routinely push 1-3 million polygons per scene on the HD consoles, and a high end PC can be several times as powerful nowadays, so he's quite out of the loop I guess.

 

[nightshade]

woah...I just noticed I did a big mistake while posting
Totally messed it up by having the previous sentences that I wrote along with the modified sentence that I came up with later xD....fixed it

 

[Neb]

Where did You got those numbers? I havent found any comparition screens in polygon count topic.
BTW I've seen many comparitions and car that are close to You looks exacly that same as in showroom, distant cars are LOD'ed for sure, but You cant see LOD transition when You're playing, and for sure cars close to You have the highest LOD possible.

They are there, even commented by a PGR3 car modeler. Now replay mode probably has better LOD model chosen as it runs at 30fps for player car but otherwise not unless it switches to higher LOD when racing with a single car.

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1368930&postcount=831


And you cant judge correctly if the car is to many meters from camera as even a "low poly" car would look really smooth and detailed.

See here the cars have about 45-50k polygons each for whole car excluding driver. Yet the model looks highly detailed.


http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/5964/shiftpc2.jpg
http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/8625/shiftpc4.jpg
http://www.imagebam.com/image/e7ef4462059590
http://www.imagebam.com/image/2d86c261626084
http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/4219/shiftpc5.jpg
http://www.imagebam.com/image/60d70562059589
http://www.imagebam.com/image/a997a761566161

In Forza 3 even cars in Photomode are LOD'ed. Only player car is not LOD'ed and only 4/8 cars has selfshadowing in Photomode [in different quality].

Ofcourse, several upwards 1-1.5 million polygon cars would eat up tons of memory and cripple perfomance even with Xenos tesselation support and unified shaders.

 

[KKRT]

See here the cars have about 45-50k polygons each for whole car excluding driver. Yet the model looks highly detailed.

I agree, but it still dont exclude a polygon count of Gran Turismo's cars, especially when we know that all premium cars have removable parts and have modelled underhood and bottom, so they could have 150-200k for normal cars and less than 400k for cars supercars and race cars. [maybe they're counting drivers too]

Damn that i didnt save link to comparison screens from replay mode and gameplay. I know where they are [in one of the gametrailers screenshots topics] but it would take hours to find them ;\ So we have to wait for 2th November and DF analysys ;]

Ofcourse, several upwards 1-1.5 million polygon cars would eat up tons of memory and cripple perfomance even with Xenos tesselation support and unified shaders.

They should made smth about 100-200k LOD version of cars for photomode, because it looks really awful, especially when there are quite many AI cars near player cars, but maybe there were space limited.

 

[Neb]

I agree, but it still dont exclude a polygon count of Gran Turismo's cars, especially when we know that all premium cars have removable parts and have modelled underhood and bottom

The pics with the cars I posted got removable parts (not spawned like in F3), 3D modeled engine/car parts, interriors etc. The damage model is extensive.

They should made smth about 100-200k LOD version of cars for photomode, because it looks really awful, especially when there are quite many AI cars near player cars, but maybe there were space limited.

Only seen photomode shots with singel car and they have tremendous amounts of polygons. Would be interesting if you could link to photomode shots with several cars onscreen.

 

[Laa-Yosh]

It's kinda obvious that they don't display a normal car in a normal state with all the extra geometry for removable parts, internal elements and such. Cause, simply, they aren't visible and it'd be a waste of resources.

 

[KKRT]

Only seen photomode shots with singel car and they have tremendous amounts of polygons. Would be interesting if you could link to photomode shots with several cars onscreen.

I dont have and cant find proper [everyone i find is blurred by motion blur or depth of field]. ;\
I made comparison on my friend X0 and FM3, but can swear that i saw somewhere comparison of lod'ed and non loded models in FM 3.

I couldnt find strict comparison replay vs gameplay from GT 5, so I paste this one

Photomode Forza 3
http://i47.tinypic.com/a317cy.jpg

Replay GT 5
http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/13/dsc00415zeg.jpg
http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/5291/dsc00419o.jpg
http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/5485/mn1d34.jpg

Gameplay
http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/8489/2z8vyap.jpg [if You look up closely, You'll see that inscription on the lamp]
Those screen shows that there is no difference or almost no difference between gameplay and replay in GT 5, and if You'll compare it to http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=17754009&postcount=1902
there almost no difference between menu and replay in car models.

I havent played Shift but this screen is true?
http://i36.tinypic.com/11vhbhk.jpg
If yes its not modelled underhood, its just textured
This one is legit - http://ded.zenblue.net/Shift_360_Damage3.jpg

 

[nightshade]

Good post KKRT, I remember seeing these shots being used for comparison few months ago on some board but since I didn't had pictures I couldn't post anything regarding these. And I'll search my HDD & see if I can find that replay mode vs Gameplay mode shot.


EDIT: Found the comparison shots...these are almost like to like comparisons of the same area/race.

Gameplay : http://img72.imageshack.us/i/ingamef.jpg/
Replay : http://img824.imageshack.us/i/replay.jpg/

Gameplay : http://img695.imageshack.us/i/ingame2nd.jpg/
Replay : http://img375.imageshack.us/i/replay2nd.jpg/

 

[Neb]

I dont have and cant find proper [everyone i find is blurred by motion blur or depth of field]. ;\
I made comparison on my friend X0 and FM3, but can swear that i saw somewhere comparison of lod'ed and non loded models in FM 3.

I could find strict comparison replay vs gameplay from GT 5, so I paste this one

Photomode Forza 3
http://i47.tinypic.com/a317cy.jpg

Is that a LODed model in photomode as that is far below other photomode shots I've seen including closeup lights, wheels, rims etc. But polycount for current scene view seems quite alike the GT5p replay shots but textures less detailed.

Replay GT 5
http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/13/dsc00415zeg.jpg
http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/5291/dsc00419o.jpg
http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/5485/mn1d34.jpg

Gameplay
http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/8489/2z8vyap.jpg [if You look up closely, You'll see that inscription on the lamp]
Those screen shows that there is no difference or almost no difference between gameplay and replay in GT 5,

I cant see any inscription nor judge detail of texture with the gameplay shot as the focus is to far away from the headlights. Also youre talking about texture resolution and detail, that is not polygon mesh detail.

and if You'll compare it to http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=17754009&postcount=1902
there almost no difference between menu and replay in car models.

But left and right side cars are still in selection/view mode. Anyway looking at the GT5p replay shots show very obvious polygon edges around cooler fence, lamps etc. You wont wont find such hard edges due to much lower polygon count in promo shots (check big images that are not SSAA). Promo shots having car with highest LOD model.

I havent played Shift but this screen is true?
http://i36.tinypic.com/11vhbhk.jpg
If yes its not modelled underhood, its just textured

That is all or almost all low settings so yes it is true for lowest graphic settings. In highest setting all engines are 3D. It is using LOD B or C which are low polygon versions for low settings. High uses LOD A aswell as for car assets.

This one is legit - http://ded.zenblue.net/Shift_360_Damage3.jpg

Blurry image but the engine is 3D but hard to spot due to image darkness and blurrines. But if you look closely you can see engine parts cast shadows onto other engine parts.

EDIT: Here is a good image from ingame play showing engine in a car, notice it is 3D and has self-shadowing present. Atleast for PC version replay is same as ingame and same as car selection menu, that is 40-60k polygon models with 1024x1024 base texture and smaller ones for car text clutter etc.

http://www.imagebam.com/image/af02f061566159

 

[Neb]

Good post KKRT, I remember seeing these shots being used for comparison few months ago on some board but since I didn't had pictures I couldn't post anything regarding these. And I'll search my HDD & see if I can find that replay mode vs Gameplay mode shot.


EDIT: Found the comparison shots...these are almost like to like comparisons of the same area/race.

Gameplay : http://img72.imageshack.us/i/ingamef.jpg/
Replay : http://img824.imageshack.us/i/replay.jpg/

Gameplay : http://img695.imageshack.us/i/ingame2nd.jpg/
Replay : http://img375.imageshack.us/i/replay2nd.jpg/

But the talk is not about replay mode cars vs ingame race cars but rather replay mode/ingame race vs photomode (promo) or selection screen car mesh. And the funny thing is the pics I linked to earlier where you can see the car mesh has hard edges not present in the high LOD version are from replay mode!

I am sure I even saw some samples from GT5 demonstration earlier this year which also where from replay mode showing off rims, body with noticably hard edges for car in focus.

 

[KKRT]

About Forza pic, it was signed as a 'great Forza model', so i thought thats no lod version, but now have some doubts

Also youre talking about texture resolution and detail, that is not polygon mesh detail.

I've talked about both, because You can see both there. In gameplay its just harder to catch an AI staying in place. I would have more examples but really dont have patience to check over 10k posts on GT board

Here is a good image from ingame play showing engine in a car, notice it is 3D and has self-shadowing present. Atleast for PC version replay is same as ingame and same as car selection menu, that is 40-60k polygon models with 1024x1024 base texture and smaller ones for car text clutter etc.

I saw that, but i meant underhood modelling. Those engines via windshield are quite good modelled in both GT and Forza oraz even GT PSP.

I'll try to post more examples later, i dont have many time right now ;]