Is this the updated Dunia engine? Looks like they finally got specularity on the foliage now. Impressive display of details on screen none the less.
More polygon in a cloth is one thing, better collision detection is another I guess.
"Yes, but how many polygons?" An artist blog entry with interesting numbers
- Thread starter Farid
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COPS N RAPPERS
Regular
tesselation can be used for many things polygon related.
it takes a lot of polygons for a model to start having smooth bends in it like in that tech demo, as for the movement and bending of cloth it takes a lot of bones to make a structure for something like that, then you have to take into account the collision that would be involved. and if tesselation was to be used in something like that the model it's self would have to be the minimum of 30k for scaling, anything lower than that and you would see noticeable LOD scaling going on.
the best cloth physics Ive seen in console games so far has to be fight night round 4, and even still if you haven't noticed their shirts, jackets, and shorts are as thin as paper.:smile:
well, the game is built off of DX11 tech for Pc, and that was i believe the 360 version running. for 360 to run graphics like that there needs to be some sort of LOD scaling going on in the background (unless 360 has the raw muscle to do all that in it's setup, if true that's even more impressive.)
anyways,the whole game doesn't need to be using it, it could just be for plants or either terrain detail, doing either one will alleviate the system well.
frankly speaking i never saw this type of graphics for 360 coming true, with many plants and a lot of them having self shadowing, not even Kameo had that. you take a look at the foliage in a lot of games on 360 these days for one, and you'll see them using the same old flat alpha maps......even to this day ( like splinter cell conviction) http://xbox360.ign.com/dor/objects/...viction-20090923021403959.html?page=mediaFull
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Farcry 2 was a game with lots & lots of good looking foliage & each having shadomaps [that too dynamic shadowmaps]. [Though had horrible dithering on the 360 version]
Avatar may be using an advanced ver. of the same engine..so I dont see how its not possible.
COPS N RAPPERS
Regular
true, it had some good vegetation detail, though I'm not sure it was exactly like this game. (avatar)
so it could still be said that few 360 games had this rare kind of detail.:smile: (with, Farcry, kameo, and Crysis being the few)
I still dont get tessellation...i know its supposed to take large polygons and subdivide into smaller ones...to give more rounded edges...so does it do it by itself...the programmer will model say 15 larger polys for a ball..and hit the tesselate button...the hardware will know how to sub-divide the 15 polys into a more rounder ball...?
Will tessellation take a hit on hardware....say Xenos has 500mpps limit, this max figure will stay at 500mpps even with tesselation? Then whats the diff between tesselation and a programmer modelling the object himself...i guess to save time...assuming the tesselation hardware knows how to subdivide correctly?
Will tessellation take a hit on hardware....say Xenos has 500mpps limit, this max figure will stay at 500mpps even with tesselation? Then whats the diff between tesselation and a programmer modelling the object himself...i guess to save time...assuming the tesselation hardware knows how to subdivide correctly?
Yes, because there's only one way to do that, so that it's completely predictable.
Yes, the actual rendering will work as usual.
These are some of the advantages:
Adaptive tesselation means that an object will be turned into more and more polygons the closer it gets to the camera.
It means that the graphics hardware won't have to deal with far too small polygons (it loses its efficiency with those), and the total number of polygons in the scene is still kept at a reasonable amount.
Objects may require a little less memory because the smooth curves don't have to be as detailed with that many polygons.
Also, skinning and other transformations and deformations can be calculated on the less detailed object, before tesselation, so vertex shaders don't have to do that much work either.
There are disadvantages too:
Sometimes working with tesselation means that even the base object has to built from more polygons. It can also take more time to model assets for tesselation, and usually you also need a displacement map on top of the existing textures, which requires additional memory and processing.
You can position new vertices to 'round' the shape however you want, depending on how programmable the hardware is. The simplest form of tesselator will just put vertices in-between existing vertices and then you can move them 'up and down' via a texture like a bump-map creating real bumps. I don't know what level of sophistication Xenos has, but I presume it's this simplest form as it was a first generation tesselator.
Depends on the hardware. For some reason I'm thinking Xenos has a halving of vertex rate when using the tesselator, but I might just be making that up!
The real benefits are saving RAM and bandwidth, as you don't need a high resolution model (though you only save RAM if you can tesselate on the fly between vertex processing and rendering, otherwise in something like PS3 you have to build a high-resolution model in RAM and send that to the GPU), and also the option of dynamic changes, like dsplacement effects or LOD.
Plus it's infinitely better to have an artist create a low-res model and have it tesselated, than have a programmer create a model. Programmer-art sucks, unless you think boxes and spheres (and teapots/donuts) make for good FPS characters!
Plus it's infinitely better to have an artist create a low-res model and have it tesselated, than have a programmer create a model. Programmer-art sucks, unless you think boxes and spheres (and teapots/donuts) make for good FPS characters!
we did tests for creating assets for subd on the fly, however we found the time and polygon layout it took to get the tessalation to look acceptable, was too much.
right now, its just not worth the effort unless its somthing simple like cloth / terrain / organic surfaces that have no exacting requirements
COPS N RAPPERS
Regular
from what i can gather, i think Directx is to blame for developers not using the tesselator, or using it to it's capabilities. the tesselator inside of the 360 was always there, it's just developers didn't have the easy accessibility to use it. (that's what I'm guessing :smile
now with games using dx11 i'm guessing 360 will start benefiting even more from Pc development.
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According to Dave the one in the 360 supports any type of algorithm. So it should support culmark. I do know that Microsoft gave a presentation on approximating culmark because while it might be able to do it doing it in real-time for a game might not be possible. I think the same thing goes for the 5xxx series.Artist still seem resistant to it's use.It could be that it doesn't support thr proper type of patchs whereas the one in HD5xxxx support many type the most common (which I don't remember the name properly culmark?
That isn't to say that the one in the 360 is as easy to use in comparison to the 5xxx series. I wish Dave would come here and explain how one would go about using it on the 360 since it lacks hull and domain shaders.
Just an update from watching the making of Uncharted 2 video, main Character model now has 80k polys, I mean it's kinda doubtful but it was from that lead programmer's words. Also in Uncharted Drake's fortune they can display up to 150 objects on screen, whereas in the sequel they can display 500 objects.
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kinda understand better what is tessellation...some form of auto hardware LOD...why didnt the review sites make it clearer..all they were saying was it adds details to a game...so i thought its free......interestingly LOD, tessellation and normal mapping/POM....all sorts of awesome and intertwinedly confusing...
...interestingly LOD, tessellation and normal mapping/POM....all sorts of awesome and intertwinedly confusing...kinda understand better what is tessellation...some form of auto hardware LOD...why didnt the review sites make it clearer..all they were saying was it adds details to a game...so i thought its free...
LOD is the main thing that is brought up but what DirectX 11 and ATI would like to do is make it so that not only you can send meshes with less polys than usual and have the hardware take care of sub dividing it into a high poly mesh but you could end up with meshes that have more polys than what a developer would normally try to send to the GPU because of memory and bandwidth constraints.
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Betanumerical
Veteran
Uncharted 2:
Main characters - 80k polys
according to.
http://gameinformer.com/b/news/archive/2009/10/02/the-making-of-uncharted-2-among-thieves.aspx
last video.
35 seconds in.
Main characters - 80k polys
according to.
http://gameinformer.com/b/news/archive/2009/10/02/the-making-of-uncharted-2-among-thieves.aspx
last video.
35 seconds in.
How many polygons in those facial demos ?
It aged well for being 9 years old
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQ457L-StCY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mGY8mIcdGA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-o6Mhpd2Io
It aged well for being 9 years old
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQ457L-StCY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mGY8mIcdGA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-o6Mhpd2Io
COPS N RAPPERS
Regular
For cut scenes yes, and i think Naughtydog disclosed on the making of the first uncharted that the movies were all pre-rendered. of cores uncharted 2 has progressed now, so that would mean that it could now all be in realtime. though, there's no real way of knowing cause the cut-scenes could all be uncompressed on the BD, (just like it was in the first game) so even if you stared into the screen you wouldn't be able to tell the differences.
you could ask people at the "The Framerate Analysis Thread" and have someone check the performance of the cut scenes, if it's realtime then naughty dog has once again set a new record.
anyways back to original topic, games do have a couple LOD forms of one model nowadays.
http://i38.tinypic.com/2418k0g.jpg
and it's up to the tesselator to diminish all that and just have only 1 LOD mesh and have it smoothly scale. (it would be awesome if we saw more developers adopting this method, doing that would help games hit 60 fps......or at least a rock solid 30)
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They didnt say prerendered exactly if I remember well. They said they ran it in real time and they recorded them in video because they needed to make the game load the data while the cut scenes are playing,