mckmas8808
Legend
YDL v5.0 confirmed for PS3; arriving mid November
- Thread starter Titanio
- Start date
It's more user-friendly, but I wouldn't say it's as good.
Does anyone know if the PowerPC Citrix client for PowerPC (Mac) is going to work for YDL? Because if Citrix works, that's going to be one major step for not needing a x86 at home for me ... (apart from already getting a laptop from work, of course- I mean, I still have to develop some x86 software, but looking forward to moving away from the Windows platform and avoid buying a new PC)
You can use rdesktop to connect to a Windows XP pro machine or Windows Terminal server.
You can use VNC to connect to a Windows PC on a LAN.
You can use remote X and XDMCP to get a desktop session on a Linux PC on the LAN (just a few X and XDM config changes).
You can use SSH with X-forwarding to run a remote application in a window.
YDL doesn't list NX-server or NX-client. This is equal to Citrix in terms of performance, bandwidth and features. However there are NX clients and servers for SUSE and Redhat PPC which may work on the PS3.
Actually with a Linux box, you can have a local user and any number of remote users logged in at the same time, which means you can use your PC from your PS3 while someone else is using it.
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Big difference is that an executing GameOS could make hardware drivers available to Linux. If the GameOS is not running, of course it can't. But this is academic, since it seems Sony is not, after all, going to ship a Linux with the PS3. See http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS9633831272.html
Doesn't the terminology "hypervisor/GameOS/application" correspond to what Kutaragi earlier characterized as levels 0(secure)/1(scheduling, device drivers)/2(guest OS)? Anyhow, I meant to be referring to whatever supposedly calls Linux -- maybe that's the hypervisor.
mckmas8808
Legend
I'm really lost as to what you're trying to say. PS3 does not come with Linux. The OS it does come with is GameOS, or XMB, with it's array of tools like a photo viewer and a web browser. You can download YDL, which is the same YDL you download for PC, and can install that onto PS3 to be able to run YDL applications. This isn't a different application by the same name or cut-down flavour of YDL. The fact that Linux doesn't 'run the system' like on a PC, but sits on top of the PS3's OS*, doesn't stop it being a Linux that exposes the PS3 hardware via drivers just like a PC.
* At this point, we don't know for sure whether you can boot back into GameOS or if you have to boot up into Linux mode, and in doing so the only way out is to reset the system. I don't know if there's been any official word on that.
WHAT?!?!
Sure. If you have a Windows XP PRO PC running on the same network, you can log into it with rdesktop (uses Microsoft's Citrix-like Remote Desktop protocol). If you have an Windows XP Home, you have to use VNC to do the same since RDP is not included. In both cases, you get a Windows session in a Window on your PS3. RDP will use much less bandwidth than VNC, remote X, or SSH, although on a LAN both are no problem.
The problem with Windows though is that it is a single user OS and will not let more than one user log in at a time, so if someone else is logged in already you have to kick them off (Windows Terminal Server allows some windows programs to run as multi-user, but a lot of applications are incompatible, and performance is poor, because Windows is basically a desktop OS pretending to be a multi-user OS. It is also extortionate in terms of pricing).
Linux on the other hand is a variant of Unix and is designed as a multi-user network OS from the onset and puts Windows to shame in these respects. You can have one local GUI session per local display (X-server), but you can have as many simultaneous independent logins and remote GUI sessions as you like. So if you have Linux installed on your PC, and someone is using it, you can configure it to allow remote GUI sessions, and you can log in and do whatever you like (like check your email, edit a document etc.) from your PC without disturbing the person on the PC, or even without him/her knowing.
Remote X with XDMCP gives you a login prompt from an xnest window on Linux to get a remote GUI session on a Linux PC from another Linux PC eg. "xnest :1 -query 192.168.5.1 -cookie mcookie". From a Windows PC, you can do the same with Cygwin/XFree + XWinlogin http://sourceforge.net/projects/xwinlogon/ to get a session on a Linux PC http://www.opensourceheaven.net/images/xwinlogon/kdecontrol.jpg . X protocol is not compressed oe encrypted, so it should only be used on a trusted LAN.
Nomachine NX protocol servers (and FreeNX which is the free version) is equivalent to Citrix metaframe servers and runs on Linux servers. Free NX clients are available for Lin ux and Windows. NX uses a highly compressed format to reduce bandwidth to similar levels and is encrypted (similar bandwith and security to Citrix) which allows it to be used over a WAN or modem. http://www.nomachine.com/screenshots.php
VNC is in between X and NX and but the bandwidth means it is only suitable for LAN. VNC clients and servers are available for Windows and Linux. http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~magi/doc/vnc/screenshots.html
You can also set up SSH X forwarding on the Linux server, and use SSH on the PS3 to run a single remote application in a Window on the PS3 by typing something like:
"ssh -X spm@192.168.5.3 firefox" on the command line (or putting it in a shortcut) will get you a window running Firefox on remote machine with IP address 192.168.5.3. SSH has strong encryption and compression , but the bandwidth is too low for WAN use.
I'm disagreeing with what you call a 'fact'. You can conceive of me disagreeing, can't you? I'm saying that YDL Linux (unlike the Linux implementation described by Kutaragi) does "'run the system' like on a PC". I can easily understand that you might think I'm wrong about this, but the meaning of what I've said does not seem to me to be so terribly obscure. It's a question of whether or not the Sony OS is running when Linux is.
If you could quote your source it might help, I don't recall this being described by Kutaragi in that way and it doesn't match my understanding, particulalrly with regard to device drivers being lumped in with the scheduler/hypervisor which appears to be an unlikely arrangement.
It would certainly make sense for Sony to not include the browser, media player and stuff like than in the lowest hypervisor level, but to keep it as a higher application level like Linux. This ensures that the hypervisor takes up minimal space when running games. If there is enough memory to run a browser and media player at the same time as Linux, then building an X-server interface that allows Linux to display these in a window on X will be childs play. In addition since Sony could isolate Linux from the display hardware completely if they wished, by running a proprietary X-server as a different protected virtual OS, and have Linux running as an unprotected virtual OS display on it. Besides writing the code for the proprietary X server, all this would require to run with a standard Linux distro in this manner is a couple of minor changes to the Linux configuration files.
Don't get shirty. I just wasn't understanding what you were talking about so asked for clarification. To me it seemed as though you were saying YDL was a different product to the PC OS.
This explains the point you were making which I missed, and as I was conceying all the knowledge I think there is on the state of YDL for PS3, I mentioned in my post above...
The fact that Linux doesn't 'run the system' like on a PC, but sits on top of the PS3's OS*
* At this point, we don't know for sure whether you can boot back into GameOS or if you have to boot up into Linux mode, and in doing so the only way out is to reset the system. I don't know if there's been any official word on that.
Which was a poorly worded way to say that perhaps LinuxOS 'displaces' GameOS.
Cool. I posted my request for Flash support. Let's hope Adobe listens.
I hear that. All consoles up to the DC and all handhelds up to the DS should be good to go.
This may help...
Adobe gives Mozilla some computer code: Donation to open-source browser covers language in Flash software
The real question is which side of the disagreement do you fall? I still hold my same beliefs today as I did in that thread, well, maybe I have softened my stance somewhat.
Interesting. And there might be other ways to give Linux users and programmers access to first class hardware drivers which Sony would not want exposed to public view. But for this the Sony OS has to be running. So far as I can tell, no one agrees with me on this, but I don't think it will be running in the YDL implementation. That's why it is really disappointing to me that Sony has apparently decided not to distribute a version of Linux that runs as an application.
What do you mean running as an application? Linux is an OS, not an application. If you mean running at the hypervisor, I don't think Sony would ever allow this, since Linux allows too much power and flexibility to allow Sony to lock it down the way Sony would like. Yhey might be able to do that for a single application, but not a whole OS, expecially an installable one. Besides, I would rather have an unfettered OS and let Sony keep it's DRM than have Sony lock down the whole OS.
This is uncertain. We've been told the OS runs like/as an application on Cell, and it can run multiple OSes simultaneously even. how that applies to PS3 Linux, we can't be sure yet. However, it's not impossible for an OS to run as an application. You get it already in virtual computers. You can run Windows as an application on Linux for example. The OS is there to sit between the user software and the hardware and provide an interface that developers can write to and use as backbone features. It takes use software commands and maps them to the hardware.
Application - Issue 'open file' command >> OS - create window graphics & access drive >> hardware - display graphics & move drive heads around
It's possible to have an OS map onto another OS before hitting the hardware, such as this possible scenario for PS3...
Application - Issue 'open file' command >> YDL - create window graphics & access drive >> GameOS - send graphics data to GPU & read drive, passing data to YDL >> hardware - display graphics & move drive heads around
In the first example, when the OS accesses the drive, the data is sent directly through it to the application. In the second example, the OS requests a file transfer from the lower OS. This OS could do all sorts of things like...DRM checks (what else?!) and can then pass the data to the Linux OS, or refuse the data. Thus the Linux OS hasn't got direct hardware access. It has to go through a lower OS and ask it's permission. It's running as an application, but not a top-level application.
As I say, we don't yet know how YDL works on PS3. It could be this way, running as an application which is my suspicion and preference. Or it could work by commandeering the hardware absolutely, preventing any GameOS operations while Linux is active and requiring a reboot to return the GameOS to operation.
