YDL v5.0 confirmed for PS3; arriving mid November

[ADEX]

As I say, we don't yet know how YDL works on PS3. It could be this way, running as an application which is my suspicion and preference. Or it could work by commandeering the hardware absolutely, preventing any GameOS operations while Linux is active and requiring a reboot to return the GameOS to operation.

The hypervisor will not allow any OS to completely commandeer the hardware since it's the boss.
Both GameOS and Linux will run above it and will most likely not be aware of each others existence.
Both may have full access to the hardware but they hypervisor is still in control and can switch between them at will.

The hardware may be virtualised in such a way that gives GameOS priority. e.g. It could be set up so a data BD can be read by Linux but a game or movie BD would not register as being present.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

The hypervisor will not allow any OS to completely commandeer the hardware since it's the boss.
Both GameOS and Linux will run above it...

Yes, that's known, but will GameOS and Linux be able to be run at the same time? Does Linux sit on, or next to, GameOS, going through the Hypervisor, or do you have to pick one other OS to run at boot up, and need to reset the machine to select the other OS?

 

[Rolf N]

Yes, that's known, but will GameOS and Linux be able to be run at the same time? Does Linux sit on, or next to, GameOS, going through the Hypervisor, or do you have to pick one other OS to run at boot up, and need to reset the machine to select the other OS?

One of the videos in the "bootup" thread clearly shows that you can exit a game and drop back to XMB without resetting the machine.

But I still don't think that's the right question. What matters is concurrency. Can they both do tasks at the same time? E.g. can I download stuff in the background while playing a game?

The messaging stuff seems to indicate that this is possible, but then that may be a common library that is included in every game. We really can't figure it out on our own IMO.

 

[GregLee]

The hypervisor will not allow any OS to completely commandeer the hardware since it's the boss. Both GameOS and Linux will run above it...

Yes, that's known, ...

Known about YDL Linux? How is this known? It's not known to me. If YDL has a version of Linux that runs on the hypervisor, where did they get it? The PPC Linux they have for Apple hardware and the Cell Linux they have for IBM and Mercury hardware are standalone, so far as I know. Did Sony supply YDL with a special version of Linux or did YDL write one? Looking at YDL's lists of applications and files in the distribution, I can't find any evidence for the existence of a non-standalone version of Linux for the Cell.

 

[PeterT]

We assume it runs on the hypervisor for the simple reason that Sony (and, most probably, the DRM hardware itself) would never allow it to do otherwise.

 

[one]

the Cell Linux they have for IBM and Mercury hardware are standalone

You know VMware can run standard OS distributions with no hassle.

 

[GregLee]

You know VMware can run standard OS distributions with no hassle.

Yes. You're suggesting Sony has a VMware-like system for Cell?

 

[ADEX]

Known about YDL Linux? How is this known? It's not known to me. If YDL has a version of Linux that runs on the hypervisor, where did they get it? The PPC Linux they have for Apple hardware and the Cell Linux they have for IBM and Mercury hardware are standalone, so far as I know. Did Sony supply YDL with a special version of Linux or did YDL write one? Looking at YDL's lists of applications and files in the distribution, I can't find any evidence for the existence of a non-standalone version of Linux for the Cell.

Linux runs on mainframes virtualised and under the Xen hypervisor on PCs. It's been capable of running like this for years, you don't need a special version of Linux.
In this case it'll just use the existing support for PPC64, which includes POWER5 / POWER5+ both of which include hypervisor support in hardware.

 

[GregLee]

In this case it'll just use the existing support for PPC64, which includes POWER5 / POWER5+ both of which include hypervisor support in hardware.

If I understand you, the hypervisor support already in the current Linux kernel can be adapted so that Linux will run under the Sony hypervisor. Thanks. I hadn't known about that support.

 

[one]

The product manual is up and it'll be updated later with more details

Install Other OS
http://manuals.playstation.net/document/en/ps3/current/settings/osinstall.html
Open Platform for PLAYSTATION 3
http://www.playstation.com/ps3-openplatform/index.html

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Open Platform for PLAYSTATION 3
http://www.playstation.com/ps3-openplatform/index.html

Microsoft Vista for PS3? Ironic and unlikely. But then, so too was Sonic on Nintendo consoles...

 

[mckmas8808]

The product manual is up and it'll be updated later with more details

Install Other OS
http://manuals.playstation.net/document/en/ps3/current/settings/osinstall.html
Open Platform for PLAYSTATION 3
http://www.playstation.com/ps3-openplatform/index.html

This is some good information. Thanks.

 

[Arwin]

Don't worry, that's not going to happen - Vista's too resource hungry.

However, OS/X? Who knows. But we can be relatively certain that we'll see lots of Linux distros aimed at the PS3, besides Yellow Dog's. I expect the RedHats, Ubuntus and Suses to follow ...

It is very interesting - Sony is taking the open platform approach to the PS3 a lot more seriously than I expected so far.

 

[ElStupido]

I think this is Sony's way of telling Microsoft that they are willing to allow foreign Software on their console so that MS drops the console buisness in favor of providing an OS for the next PS, which will be waaaay more profitable for them.
I could see that happening if 360 is not as successful as MS wants it to be.

 

[Titanio]

Kai Staats on some more YDL stuff:

Chris,

> 1) Will YDL 5.0 be able to read from the drive so that we could, for
> example, transfer files via CD/DVD?

Yes.


> 2) I know that the PS3 GameOS does not allow for transfers from a home
> computer to the the HDD over the network, but when Linux is booted, will it
> be able to access network resources to transfer files and have files
> transferred to it?

The gig-e port is supported and live, both at install (for network installs)
and post-install.

Sincerely,
kai

Will we be able to play back protected disc content in YDL like DVD or Blu-ray movies? I ask this because in PS2's Linux distro, DVD disc access was not possible. Thanks in advance.

We have not honestly tried playing a DVD movie from YDL yet, just has not been
top on our list as you can watch them from the GameOS. I will add this to our
test list, thanks.

http://lists.terrasoftsolutions.com/pipermail/yellowdog-general/2006-November/thread.html

And yeah, that "open platform" page is rather exciting

 

[Shifty Geezer]

However, OS/X? Who knows. But we can be relatively certain that we'll see lots of Linux distros aimed at the PS3, besides Yellow Dog's. I expect the RedHats, Ubuntus and Suses to follow ...

What everyone here is really wanting is some Uber-nerds to create a new AmigaDOS and Workbench, and we'll install it onto PS3 hardware and set it as the default OS, and pretend Amiga never actually died but just morphed into Sony. As long as they bring out a customized keyboard, I'm sure the world can be convinced.

 

[SPM]

There is zero chance of Windows Vista or Windows XP moving onto PS3. The problem is that both these OSes are ix86 binary OSes, and their applications and API are tied to the ix86 architecture. Unlike Linux the OSes themselves are difficult to port to another architecture and third party applications would be incompatible due to them being ix86. Even if Microsoft has spent large sums of money on a system with a 5-7 year life to port Windows, you would have an OS with no applications, and it is unlikely third parties would bother porting applications to a system with a limited life.

Microsoft has tried porting Windows to Itanium, Alpha and other platforms before, and has failed miserably and has had to scrap the products, even though these were for servers, where third party applications are not so important.

Apple OSX is possible but unlikely due Apple's closed box mentality (unless Apple stops producing the Mac and focuses on the ipod business).

The most likely candidate for a second OS on the PS3 is Windows CE. However it is really designed for PDAs, not with high resolution displays or high end applications in mind.

 

[patsu]

I think Windows Alpha failed because there was no application compiled for it. The OS ran fine (and quick !). I saw it myself many years ago.

Technically, it should be possible to see some variants of embedded Windows OS on Cell.

In any case, I really dig this screen:
http://www.playstation.com/ps3-openplatform/index.html

 

[SPM]

I think Windows Alpha failed because there was no application compiled for it. The OS ran fine (and quick !). I saw it myself many years ago.

Exactly, and the same is true for Windows Itanium which was billed as data server. On a server, applications are less important because you can find a use for single use servers like for fileserving. Even then Microsoft's fairly recent attempts to port Windows to Itanium died, while Linux thrived on both platforms. The reason is that Linux is an open source source distribution, and can easily be recompiled for any platform in it's entirity, along with thousands of open source applications.

Windows is a proprietary binary distribution, and only Microsoft can recompile it. Windows is also not written for easy porting, and some of the code in it is licensed by Microsoft from others and requires re-licensing by Microsoft in order to port to other platforms. Even worse, applications are distributed as ix86 binaries and are mostly closed source, so the only people who can recompile them are third party developers who for the most part won't be interested.

Technically, it should be possible to see some variants of embedded Windows OS on Cell.

Technically, there is no point living, because eventually we are all going to die.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Technically, there is no point living, because eventually we are all going to die.

Windows isn't that bad, to think about giving up if it gets ported to PS3.