Yay for P.C Gaming

Well, maybe I remember things differently, but over here most PCs were already sporting 2GB of RAM,

But as you know amount of system RAM isn't on it's own a particularly useful reference for overall gaming capability.

A high end gaming PC at the end of 2005 may well have had 2GB (4x console) system memory while by the end of this year it could be argued that only 16GB (2x console) will be high end gaming PC 'standard'. So in terms of system RAM capacity then yes the new consoles look good compared to your typical gaming PC in relation to last generations position but that's were the favourable comparison ends.

For example look at the compute capabilities of the 360 compared to the highest end PC's of 2005 and then do the same with the new consoles using todays hardware (which itself will be either superceded of very close to being superceded by the time those consoles actually launch). As a less used example the peak SIMD throughput of the fastest CPU available when the 360 launched (AthlonX2 4800+) was merely half of Xenon while a mid range Haswell i5 based CPU today has well over 4x the theoretical SIMD throughput of the Jaguar modules in the new consoles.

Similar results can be seen by comparing other metrics like shader throughput (Xenos matched the fastest GPU available at it's launch while Orbis barely registers over a third as fast as the fastest PC GPU available today 4-5 months before it's launch), tecture throughput and arguably memory bandwidth.

and PC ports to the 360 suffered from not translating all that well without some effort, so that framerates and resolution lagged, if not at launch, then certainly within the first year. That's at least how I remember it.

This isn't really evidence of anything other than the lack of effort that went into optimising those ports for the new console architecture. It's not like those eary ports that struggled haven't been far exceeded today by games running on that same hardware.

Conversely, go ahead and tell me where I can buy a GPU with 8GB of GDDR5.

It's June 2013, the consoles don't launch until at least September likely later. 4 months before the Xbox 360 launched you couldn't get a GPU with 512MB of memory. They were only available a matter of weeks ahead of the 360 in the two highest end GPU's available. Yet today there are 3 models available sporting 6GB memory (more than enough by most accounts to match the consoles on graphics memory useage) and 4 months from now when 4Gb memory chips become more available there's no reason to expect 8 GB (and even higher) memory configuration to be available too.

Or a laptop with an 8-core CPU-GPU that has a direct connection between CPU core and GPU.

Why be so specific about the implementation? Why not ask what GPU was available in 2005 that had the same DX9+ featureset as Xenos? Or unified shaders? Or 256GB/s bandwidth for the framebuffer? Or a unified memory architecture for that matter (one of the key advantages that is often pointed to as the new consoles big advantage over similarly specced PC's and yet it's an implementation detail that the last 2 generations of Xbox already followed)? I'd say the HSA nature of the new consoles is well behind the technical bar set by the 360 with those features in 2005.

Besides, 8 big desktop PC cores aren't required to match the 8 low power laptop and tablet targetted cores powering the consoles. 4 piledrivers running close to 4Ghz like you'd get in a decent model Trinity would be plenty for that and you can get that for sub $150. By the time the consoles launch Kaveri will be filling that price bracket with yet more powerful cores and full HSA compliance. Coupled with a decent discrete GPU it should be capable of everything the new consoles can achieve via the CPU-GPU links on the APU alone leaving a massive dedicated GPU to deal with the graphics work. Haswell ditto which in it's highest end configuration has similar peak compute throughput on the CPU die alone (including the IGP) as the new Xbox has in it's GPU and CPU combined.

Just image trying to compare the around 310 GFLOP's peak throughput of Xenon + Xenos in 2005 to the 38.4 GFLOP Ahlon X2 as I'm able to do with Haswell today months before the new consoles launch...

I call BS on being able to buy a laptop that can outperform or even match the PS4, as a total package, today, let alone last year. On the odd chance that you do manage, let me know the price, as well.

I don't follow laptop hardware too closely but it should be easy to create a laptop with far more power than the PS4. I'm over egging it I'm sure but a quad Haswell, 16GB DDR3 and a 780m (around 80% of a desktop 680). Should slaughter any console. Expecting slicker CPU-GPU communication to make up for such a huge power gulf is wishful thinking IMO. Expecially with the likes of Kaveri and Haswell muddying the waters with their own IGP's which could be put to use in much the same was as the console GPU's for low latency GPGPU work. - or Nvidias upcoming Maxwell GPU which may have CPU cores on die with the GPU.

Specs may have been good last time, but practical use of those specs took a long time, making it almost irrelevant. This time however, PS4 should run PC ports better than most PCs right out of the gate, without much optimisation at all.

From day one with the exception of a few PC centric games (quake 4 being the main example) the last generation consoles ran cross platform titles as well as the absolute best PC's - so for all intents, better than 99.99% of the PC's available at the time. If they had opportunity to develop from there thanks to devs getting to grips with their new architectures then that just meant those consoles could continue to keep up with the PC's progression for some time further.

This time the new consoles come out of the gate well behind the fastest PC's on fairly well understood and easy to optimise archiutectures. So not only will mainstream enthusiast level GPU's likely still offer similar or better results than the brand new consoles but the consoles will have far less room to improve this generation compared to last. That doesn't sound like a benefit to me.
 
No they didnt - please do not blaspheme....

I should have specified this was the case for the core graphics. There would have been some resolution and framerate differences with the most powerful hardware. But then anyone running less than an 1800XT in 2005 would probably have seen worse framerate or resolution or core graphics in many multi platform games compared with the console versions.

Today that would be equivilent to expecting anyone with less performance than a 780GTX to be unable to match console performance. Which would be pretty absurd.
 
Today that would be equivilent to expecting anyone with less performance than a 780GTX to be unable to match console performance. Which would be pretty absurd.

Couldn't that be somewhat probable for GPUs with only 2GB VRAM though? Like even the 2GB models of the GTX 680 and 770?
 
Wow Arwin you brought the wrath of PJB down upon yourself. :) Here we go again....
 
Couldn't that be somewhat probable for GPUs with only 2GB VRAM though? Like even the 2GB models of the GTX 680 and 770?

An argument could be made for that but it's not necessarily going to manifest in a lesser experience on the 2GB GPU. I guess it depends how developers handle streaming and allow things to scale within the engine but even if all 8 GB of the console memory is used (which I think means 5 GB in XB1 split between both system and graphics) it's still conceivable that the PC version could run at higher resolution/framerate with other graphical enhancements while at the same time sacraficing other aspacts to save on memory usage.

Plus of course both those GPU's have 4GB options available today. In fact there are currently 10 different PC's GPU models available (that I know of) that come in options of 3GB or more and that number should increase by the end of the year. Most of the sources I've read including the developers here seem to be saying that 3-4GB should be enough for partity in terms of memory usage.
 
Well, I have no interested in winning this argument, pjbliverpool. I have an i7 3770, and if you're right, I can buy a GPU fairly soon that gives me better performance than any of the next-gen consoles. We'll see in practice though. You're saying for instance that you think it is a downside that consoles are easier to program, because they will be tapped out and lose touch with PCs sooner. But with GPUs getting more and more complex, and consoles being programmable at a very low level, there's still some room for excavating performance out of them I gather ... All the driver side optimisations on the AMD and NVidia end make me wonder. And CPU-GPU performance, well, we'll see. Perhaps consoles will help establish some kind of physics API that works across both AMD and NVidia and will supported by all games? These things drive me nuts on PC.

But from what you are saying, the 360 did better than PC early on - this may be true, I guess I stepped into the whole thing a year late, so may not have remembered things correctly. Or perhaps I'm confusing with Xbox1 even.

Anyway, I found this, from late 2006, and thought it was amusing:

PC price:
RAM : 2x1GB ~ 250$
8800GTX ~ 650$
QuadCore ~ 1700$
Total ~ 2600$ (just for 3 components, PC needs also mobo, optical drive, hdd etc.)

X360 price:
399$
Total:399$

I just have to laugh at the quad core CPU. Ignoring that, it's not that far off, relatively, to today I think.

That GTX had 1GB of RAM I think. Though if you add the multiplier, if we transpose that though, then by the end of next year, PCs with 32GB of RAM and 16GB of VRAM ... :D We'll see.

I would already be happy if PC games get rid of microstuttering ... some still do it (looking at you Gunslinger)
 
8800gtx has 768mb. Typical card of the day was 256-512mb. I don't know which quad core cost that much. Q6600 was initially $600 or so. Maybe they are talking a dual dualie setup.

The aspects that kill the consoles for me are the relative lack of RTS games, some Kickstarters, and modding. These are most of my gaming interests.

I am always really curious about what can be done with new console hardware in the closed box console world. Especially these new super APUs that only economically work for consoles. Our monster PC hardware tends to go so underutilized because of so many realities of the computer world.
 
Me thinks next gen console ports to PC will be fine on 2GB VRAM at least at 1080p. This may change after a couple years but initially I don't see >2GB making a huge difference unless you're running some extreme resolutions or multi-monitor setups.
 
Anyway, I found this, from late 2006, and thought it was amusing:

PC price:
RAM : 2x1GB ~ 250$
8800GTX ~ 650$
QuadCore ~ 1700$
Total ~ 2600$ (just for 3 components, PC needs also mobo, optical drive, hdd etc.)

X360 price:
399$
Total:399$

I just have to laugh at the quad core CPU. Ignoring that, it's not that far off, relatively, to today I think.

In terms of the overall cost of the highest end components the cost probably isn't all that different today than it was at the end of 2005 or 2006. But the difference now is that you won't need either the best CPU or GPU to exceed the new consoles performance.

For example if I wanted to build a new PC today that would clearly exceed console performance I'd only have to spend the following on the same 3 components:

£222 - HD7950 3GB
£120 - FX8320 (8 bulldozer at cores, 3.5Ghz)
£100 - 16GB DDR3
 
Hmpf. I'm not buying that fully, and would further note that particularly the I could buy a better laptop last year comment I had issues with.

But it is not a discussion we could very usefully have right now. Maybe later, when some multi-platform devs are willing to openly discuss different performance metrics. Also assuming that PC only needs half the graphics RAM feels a bit like cheating, but it is not necessarily unrealistic at this stage, for multi-platform dev ironically PC could be an mportant platform to support well early on, Xbox onky has DDR3 and EDRAM, and PS4 devs onky recently discovered they may have up to 7GB to play with. We used to have one or two DICE insiders here , would love to have their input ;)
 
Last fall i could buy a pitcairn based laptop (7970m is more perf and bandwidth than ps4 gpu) with a mobile i7 with as much ram as I would ever need and an SSD. Perhaps when it gets right down to it a console might perform better than that laptop because of unified memory and what not, but I expect by the time we see any console games out performing that system, available systems (even mobile ones) will have moved far beyond their ability. Before the consoles even launch we'll see better performance than I suggest in laptops.
 
So are games going to finally start shipping 64bit executables? I suppose they'll have no choice but to go there now. The terror of 64bit has caused some problems because there are 32bit games that exceed their address space and crash in some cases.
 
In terms of the overall cost of the highest end components the cost probably isn't all that different today than it was at the end of 2005 or 2006. But the difference now is that you won't need either the best CPU or GPU to exceed the new consoles performance.

For example if I wanted to build a new PC today that would clearly exceed console performance I'd only have to spend the following on the same 3 components:

£222 - HD7950 3GB
£120 - FX8320 (8 bulldozer at cores, 3.5Ghz)
£100 - 16GB DDR3

I think the FX 6300 ($140) would be enough to clearly beat the consoles CPU...


anyway, I agree XB360 gen was far more impressive at launch, and it took until early 2008 for cheaper PC hardware to clearly beat the consoles, things are different now....
 
Me thinks next gen console ports to PC will be fine on 2GB VRAM at least at 1080p. This may change after a couple years but initially I don't see >2GB making a huge difference unless you're running some extreme resolutions or multi-monitor setups.

Yeah I doubt you'd need an 8gb video card on pc to match console since console has to do everything in that one 8gb ram pool whereas much of that work can be done in the ddr ram pool on pc. Still though a 2gb gpu may be light, not right away but eventually. I think a 4gb gpu would be enough but we'll have to wait and see. I'm not going to upgrade my twin 2gb 670's until a game comes along that challenges them.
 
Yeah I doubt you'd need an 8gb video card on pc to match console since console has to do everything in that one 8gb ram pool whereas much of that work can be done in the ddr ram pool on pc. Still though a 2gb gpu may be light, not right away but eventually. I think a 4gb gpu would be enough but we'll have to wait and see. I'm not going to upgrade my twin 2gb 670's until a game comes along that challenges them.

Eventually of course 2GB will fall behind. I mean to say that I don't expect 2GB to be all of a sudden insufficient once the new consoles are released. 2GB will gradually give way to 3-4GB as the standard just as 512MB gave way to 1GB etc.
 
So are games going to finally start shipping 64bit executables? I suppose they'll have no choice but to go there now. The terror of 64bit has caused some problems because there are 32bit games that exceed their address space and crash in some cases.

I believe BF4 is 64bit only.

Once the current consoles are dropped from multiplatform considerations, this will certainly be the case for all multiplatform games on PC.
 
I believe BF4 is 64bit only.

Once the current consoles are dropped from multiplatform considerations, this will certainly be the case for all multiplatform games on PC.

It's about time for games to move into 64bit only era!
I remember first popular game compiled for 64bit was Fra Cry from Crytek with few little extra textures here and there.
 
Yeah I have to run memory management utilities in the background to keep Skyrim from crashing constantly as heavily modded it hits 2.5-3Gb RAM usage very quickly.
 
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