YAPCVC Debate (usability) *spyawn

Discussion in 'PC Hardware, Software and Displays' started by Nesh, May 14, 2015.

  1. joker454

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    Filtering by year helps, but that still doesn't account for many things. The obvious is volume. Someone could say that the PS2 for example had more issues than the Sega Saturn, but then again there were an order of magnitude more PS2's in service so one would expect more complaints, but that doesn't necessarily mean it had more issues. Same with pc's, factor in desktops, laptops, tablets and so on and the amount of devices that fall under the "pc controller disconnects" search is staggering. Anytime you deal with volume, consoles are always going to be at the bottom. Additionally those searches on pc will always include people trying to get non supported controllers to work, tinkerers trying to mess around, etc. You know in those searches there will be someone trying to get a Gravis gamepad working or whatever and is asking for help to deal with bugs and connection issues, or someone having controller problems playing console emulators on pc, or people having issues with their pirated software, etc. Those searches also probably have a bunch of hits from developers dealing with bugs and what have you. Point being, the net for that type of search on pc is just so wide that it doesn't give us any indication of how real of a problem it is compared to a similar search on console which would be much more accurate.


    Not really. The pc controller stack code is old and well tested, even more so in the past decade because pc controller basically means xbox 360 controller which has been tested to death. Consoles always throw everything away and start fresh, hence you are always dealing with new new hardware, new dev team, new code and hence new issues. Plus the permutations on pc are no where near what they used to be. There's two cpu makers, two gpu makers and a small handful of chipsets. Most everything is on the motherboard now and tested to work together, the variables are no where near what they used to be and as such neither are the issues.


    That was more generally speaking, that's what these threads usually degenerate down to, and it typically seems like console owners always have the crappiest most problem ridden pc's ever invented. It's just like when you deal with dual console owners, usually by sheer coincidence I'm sure the Playstation fan will have more problems with their Xbox, the Xbox fan will have more problems with their Playstation, and they both have nothing but constant problems with pc gaming.


    You can justify most every single problem that way then, even on pc. Unless you fall into the above category as that person who always has driver issues, which on console forums is about as likely as a console war.
     
  2. MrFox

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    The existence of this site is very telling.

    http://www.systemrequirementslab.com/cyri
    On consoles the game runs well because it has the PS4 logo on the game box. That's it.

    Oculus said the minimum specs is a 970. Will it work on my 780? Does it require new feature of later generation or is it about power? Right now the answer is "probably" and my card was $600 only a year ago. Morpheus will absolutely work perfectly with my PS4 for the next 8 years, and the question itself is hilarious. Will this PS4 game work on my PS4? Yes. Will I have to fiddle? No.

    I have a thrustmaster steering wheel, I can move through the menu of either my PS3 or PS4 and the entire game works without ever using anything but the steering wheel. On PC it's a switch between keyboard, mouse, and wheel. It's a crappy usability when it's a minimalistic sim rig in a home theater.
     
    #142 MrFox, May 21, 2015
    Last edited: May 21, 2015
  3. joker454

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    Sure that's true, but like anything else it's a compromise. For example you may have the above point, but then again you also don't the time honored tradition of having to explain to someone why that shelf full of games that they spent a ton of money on no longer works because the new console has a different logo. Or that you get to play your games anywhere on any machine you have in the house, or mobile on your laptop, or on a plane, etc which that console can't. Or that's there are so many games you can play on pc but can't on console because yours has the wrong logo. And so on. There's always pros and cons, most of which we've been over time and again here.
     
  4. goonergaz

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    Erm, not quite sure what you're saying here, for the underlined - isn't that what remote play is essentially? And regarding the bolded there's plenty of titles I can play on my PS4 that won't play on my PC.
     
  5. Shifty Geezer

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    Joker means the library is larger on PC both because there's more titles on PC (indie releases, specialist titles like LoL) and a massive back catalogue of broadly compatible games. I've been playing SW:Battlefronts 2 on PC. I can't play that on PS3 or PS4 despite owning it on PS2.

    Which isn't a usability discussion. But it's not like PCVC debates stick to any aspect in particular for long. :p
     
  6. goonergaz

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    Well PSNow will add the BC functionality, it works surprisingly well but it's a shame they're making us pay for stuff we already bought :(
     
  7. joker454

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    See, I'd argue it totally is. Because to you guys having a driver issue is a usability issue, whereas to me having a black screen because a game doesn't work at all is just as much of a usability issue. I mean if you are going to talk about how the logo on a console aids usability, then you also have to talk about how the logo hinders it.
     
    #147 joker454, May 22, 2015
    Last edited: May 22, 2015
  8. MrFox

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    Usability issues: intuitive user actions not providing expected results.
     
  9. joker454

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    Exactly. Put in game, and it doesn't work. Try explaining to a parent or whomever why their games no longer work. They are playstation games, why don't they play? Just google "do ps3 games work on ps4" for example, it auto completes to multi millions of hits. You guys are looking at this from a tech head point of view, not from a player point of view, hence why you don't see this as a usability issue.
     
  10. MrFox

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    That's quite a stretch.
     
  11. joker454

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    For someone like me and you that understand architectural differences and all that stuff sure, we get it. To say someone like my brother in law not understanding why his ps3 games don't work on ps4, not so much. Go by the link you posted earlier, the "will this game work on my pc" issues link. That's not a usability issue to me at all because I know every game will work. I can drop high res shadows to improve framerate or I know what settings I can tweak to make any pc game work even on the shittiest of laptops. It's not a usability issue to me at all. But I'd acknowledge that it is a usability issue in general because the public at large doesn't necessarily know any of that, hence they may play a game on their 5 year old laptop and not understand why it plays like crap. Likewise that same user will not understand why their playstation games aren't working on their playstation. Both are usability issues.
     
  12. MrFox

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    Sorry but I think your false equivalence is still bullshit.

    The logo of PS4 game case is PS4. It's clearly indicated "This game only works on PS4".
    Does PS4 games work on PS4? Yes.
    Does PS3 games work on PS4? No.

    There's no other question. Put the disc in, play 30 seconds later after the partial install. No fiddling with graphics settings in the game. Nothing else. No game ID to enter, no auth, no fuckup when reinstalling it, no graphics drivers to update, no problem when trying to auth the game on xmas eve with overloaded servers.

    *dramatization*
    - Hello mrfox, this is your nephew mr dumbass... Does PC game X work on my PC?
    - The fuck do I know. Let me check the forums... What your GPU? Is it the 2GB or the 4GB? Is it overclocked? Is it the cheap version they made later with a 128bit bus? What's the suffix on the card? I know it's a 660 but is it the TI version? What's your CPU? How much memory? Is your memory 1066 or did you upgrade it to 1866 or 2133? Did you fill all slots to get full speed? Is it an AMD, cause there's a major problem right now with AMD? Did you patch it? Did windows detect your graphics card and keep reinstalling the driver from windows update? Did you download the one from nvidia? Go into windows update and uncheck that driver. Reinstall the shit from amd. Don't call me again, see you at christmas.
    *click*
     
  13. goonergaz

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    lol, joker are you on a wind-up? seriously, I did a search for "do ps3 games work on ps4" and I didn't find anyone asking the question from a 'dumbass' PoV - all the finds seem to be features on the PS4. And PS3 (mostly) wasn't BC so why would people suddenly expect PS4 to be so? They might ask the question, but that doesn't mean there is a usability issue it just means consumers are asking questions and making an informed choice.

    as for 'does this game play on my PC' - hell yeah that's a great mine-field right there and all old games work? I don't think so, there are games that you have to jump through loops to get to work and some that won't work at all - hell PC games used to come on a completely different format so don't make it seem like it's just a minor tweak.

    lol "will elite run on my pc" got more than half the results of the "do ps3 games work on ps4" and on the first page there are people actually asking the question rather than countless FAQs!
     
    #153 goonergaz, May 22, 2015
    Last edited: May 22, 2015
  14. Shifty Geezer

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    I've never met anyone who couldn't understand the difference between platforms. No-one stuck an XBox disc in PS2 and got annoyed at it not working. No-one stuck MS Office CDs in their Mac and freaked out at it not playing their software. No-one stuck a PS3 disc in PS4 and got annoyed at a completely different machine not running the game. It's expected by and large, and BC is communicated explicitly as an added bonus where present in consoles. Maybe we're starting to see a generation of people who expect compatibility between devices on the same platform franchise due to mobiles as well as PC, but that'll be a new phenomenon and one I've never come across. And even then, everyone knows older devices don't run the latest stuff. How many 7 year old phones get the latest OS updates and run the latest apps? Why should 7 year old consoles be any different?
     
  15. joker454

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    And yet I have. No only that but it's the #1 most common question I hear, and at one company I worked at was the #1 most common tech support question that people simply couldn't understand. It's actually *really* common. That's why I say people need to remove themselves from the equation and look at things from the outside in, otherwise these discussions get no where. That you guys don't get this is the only thing I really needed to hear to realize how out of touch some people, especially on tech forums, can really be. There's no point discussing this here.
     
  16. goonergaz

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    lol, joker by name...so no PC issues, just lots of idiots putting the wrong disks into the wrong consoles...I'm sorry but you're talking rubbish, please find a few examples on the web where people have done such a thing...but even then 'no 1 issue', lol

    even searching "why won't my ps4 play ps3 games" find no actual complaints

    I guess these people with the issues are the 90 year olds who weren't around when tinternet came along so just write to you for advice
     
  17. MrFox

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    "I award you no points, and may god have mercy on your soul." :p

     
    #157 MrFox, May 22, 2015
    Last edited: May 22, 2015
    Shifty Geezer likes this.
  18. joker454

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    Ok, I like the video :) But still, at the end of the day with enough restrictions we can pigeon hole even the Apple Pippen as the victor in a discussion. It's always tough to discuss such things on a console forum because there's always a long list rules on what counts, what doesn't count, and so on which inevitably are tailored to favor consoles naturally. This isn't surprising, you can see the same thing in camera discussions on camera forums based on brand, on pc forums, and so on. It's very predictable but it does make these discussions moot. It's still fascinating to me what you guys do and don't consider usability issues, quite the tangent from what I'm accustomed to. Not sure if you guys mean it or are just saying stuff to win an argument, but whatever I'll drop it all here, we're clearly in different worlds.
     
  19. Shifty Geezer

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    Why is it that what you've experienced first hand is what the rest of the world is really like, and what I've experienced is an unrepresentative, limited microcosm?

    'Usability' is how easily and intuitively and accurately a product does its job. Whether it does something you want or not is an issue of features, not usability. How well a mouse is tracked is a usability issue. Whether a device support mouse input or not is a feature issue. Playing software not targeted at your device (PS3 games on PS4, old DOS games on Windows, latest iOS8 apps on iPhone 3, BRDs in DVD player) is a feature. Playing software targeted at your device (PS4 games on PS4, recent Windows game on Windows, iOS 8 app on iPhone 6, BRDs in BRD player) and having it difficult to use - so hard to navigate, prone to errors preventing correct use, difficult to reach certain criteria to enable access (having to clear out RAM say to allow an app to open, or enable/disable other software) - is a matter of usability. Playing software and having it work but have issues like graphical glitches or controller problems is either a matter of usability (system level operation, tweaking required) or a matter of software defects in the final product independent of the platform on which it's running. The key differentiator being whether the platform is the source of the problems at the system level, or the individual product is.

    Everyone in this discussion save yourself knows exactly what was meant by 'usability' on both sides of the discussion, so attributing it to console warriors cherry-picking a pro-console set of criteria is typical nonsense.
     
  20. Shifty Geezer

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    What's that from?
     
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