Xenon/PS3 does'nt need external CPU to use AGEIA does it?

[jpr27]

I was reading up on the new physics system AGEIA and was wondering if the Xenon / PS3 (what we think their specs will be) can handle this type of processing in their CPU? If the Xenon does have 3 cores would'nt it be possible for the Xenon to incorporate this technology to some degree if not all? Same for the PS3 and its cell structure? In terms of PC gaming I can see a need but what about when the dual core cpu's come about? To assign say one core to handle more physics etc?

Guess my whole point to this is that although the thought of a dedicated CPU to physics would be great, I think that developers and coders will be able to take advantage of this technology with the next wave of consoles and desktops with the multi core CPU's.

Is there something in AGEIA that current CPU design does poorly or requires a different design?

I'm not against the idea of dedicated physics chip much like the GPU but im just thinking multi core processing will handle more of the burden then moving to a dedicated physics system. At least in the near future.

Your thoughts?

 

[Brad Grenz]

Well, we don't have a lot of technical details on the PhysX hardware, but I think it must boil down deconstructing physics calculations in software, and then designing basically a fixed function device to solve those problems really well. Like the difference between software and hardware T&L. And then you give the chip dedicated memory and bandwidth. CPUs can and do serve these functions, and you can design CPUs to do them even better (see: Cell), but It's hard to compete with something engineered to do anything else. As with most things you trade flexibility for performance.

 

[sunscar]

My own thoughts on the matter are this. Even a fully dedicated dual-core Pentium 4, or even an Athlon 64 dual-core design would pale in comparison to even the first PPUs. Why? Because they're not designed specifically to be physics units... the PPU is an ASIC, designed specifically to do physics math, and do it both in bulk and to get it done quickly.

Next gen PC chips won't likely break a tenth of what those PPUs can work with.

Just my own thoughts on the matter.

Later

 

[Andy]

How well would say a customised 2nd cell processor, used only for physics calculation in a PS3 compare to one of these PhysX PPUs? Would the PhysX PPU trounce it, or would the customised cell be able to hold its own ground?

 

[Carl B]

Re: Xenon/PS3 does'nt need external CPU to use AGEIA does it

I was reading up on the new physics system AGEIA and was wondering if the Xenon / PS3 (what we think their specs will be) can handle this type of processing in their CPU? If the Xenon does have 3 cores would'nt it be possible for the Xenon to incorporate this technology to some degree if not all? Same for the PS3 and its cell structure? In terms of PC gaming I can see a need but what about when the dual core cpu's come about? To assign say one core to handle more physics etc?

Guess my whole point to this is that although the thought of a dedicated CPU to physics would be great, I think that developers and coders will be able to take advantage of this technology with the next wave of consoles and desktops with the multi core CPU's.

Is there something in AGEIA that current CPU design does poorly or requires a different design?

I'm not against the idea of dedicated physics chip much like the GPU but im just thinking multi core processing will handle more of the burden then moving to a dedicated physics system. At least in the near future.

Your thoughts?

I don't think they'll be as good as a dedicated PPU, well at least the chips in XBox 2 won't, but they are both definitely going to be 'incorporating this technology.'

Microsoft has already announced it will be using the SDK, so that's a lock there.

For Sony, whether they go with Novadek (the PhysX stuff) or not, you can be sure an SPE or two will be tearing through physics on that system.

 

[Brad Grenz]

How well would say a customised 2nd cell processor, used only for physics calculation in a PS3 compare to one of these PhysX PPUs? Would the PhysX PPU trounce it, or would the customised cell be able to hold its own ground?

You don't need a 2nd Cell. Including 8 SPEs in the PS3 and 3 PPC cores with 3 Altivec units in the Xbox 2 is what Sony and MS have done to solve this problem. Maybe neither can really match the performance of the PPU, but they are more flexible and cost effective solutions. I'm sure both companies think their multicore designs solve the problem of more complex physics, not to mention AI, et all, sufficiently.

 

[Megadrive1988]

Re: Xenon/PS3 does'nt need external CPU to use AGEIA does it

I was reading up on the new physics system AGEIA and was wondering if the Xenon / PS3 (what we think their specs will be) can handle this type of processing in their CPU? If the Xenon does have 3 cores would'nt it be possible for the Xenon to incorporate this technology to some degree if not all? Same for the PS3 and its cell structure? In terms of PC gaming I can see a need but what about when the dual core cpu's come about? To assign say one core to handle more physics etc?

Guess my whole point to this is that although the thought of a dedicated CPU to physics would be great, I think that developers and coders will be able to take advantage of this technology with the next wave of consoles and desktops with the multi core CPU's.

Is there something in AGEIA that current CPU design does poorly or requires a different design?

I'm not against the idea of dedicated physics chip much like the GPU but im just thinking multi core processing will handle more of the burden then moving to a dedicated physics system. At least in the near future.

Your thoughts?

no,

if you want Physics Processing Unit capability in any given platform (PC, Arcade, Console, etc) you need, yes, a PPU of some sort. be it AGEIA's PhysX or some other PPU. you will not get the benfits of a PPU in normal CPUs or even the new multi-core CPUs going into PCs, Xenon, Rev and PS3.


I wonder, if future consoles (ones that have not been designed yet) like Xbox3 will have PPUs, PPPs (primative processing unit) raytracing unit, and other dedicated hardware. If not the future generation of mainstream consoles in or so 6 years, but other new consoles part of the upcoming generation in 1-2 years, something not mainstream like a modern NeoGeo.

just like in the mid 1990s you could add a new 3D accelerator to your PC like Rendition Verite, 3DFX Voodoo, Videologic PowerVR, etc. these 3D chips could do stuff that you could not get with just a fast CPU and software rendering alone.

 

[sunscar]

This is a response to the question of using a second CELL, though a modified CELL CPU as a PPU. It depends on how it is modified (CELL is modular basically, so it may be possible to build a PPU variation of CELL with simple PPU-esque building blocks).

This is more a response to the statement that Nest-Gen really wouldn't need a separate PPU. More processing power is always better in the context of a gaming environment. If the physics can be done by a dedicated unit and the CPU can be left unhindered by that function, then so be it. It would be cleaner, more simplistic, and yes, nicer if it could be done with less hardware complexity, I.E. fewer chips to orchestrate, but in any event it's better to have the extra power directly for that. Eventually all consoles will incorporate a dedicated PPU of sorts anyway (the gen after PS3s and Xenons) so it makes little difference.

Later