Xbox360 forced to upcaling dvd with the vga cable ?

[iknowall]

Hi, i posted this on the teamxbox forum but i did not get an answare :

http://forum.teamxbox.com/showthread.php?t=389358


"I was wondering how the dvd output work when using the vga cable.

If you use the vga cable, the signal must use a standard vga resolution,
it can't be for example 720 x 576 pal or 720 x 480 ntsc , because these resolution are not vga standard resolution, and even if the xbox360 force to use a non standard resolution, the panel will have trouble displaying it .

Looking the manual of the samsung lcd hdtv , i found the resolution that the panel support by the vga input :

640 x 480

800 x 600

1024 x 768

1360 x 768


The best choise would be set the xbox350 to 1360 x 768 so that it perfectly match the native resolution of the panel.

But what appens when you play a dvd ?

Do the xbox downsample the dvd to 640 x 480 ? But this would cause some trouble since 640 x 480 is 4/3 and the movie aspect ratio will not fit good in this resolution.

Do the xbox act like a pc and upscale the dvd to the actual resolution used, for example 1360 x 768 ? This would be the most logical choise because it is a 16/9 resolution and perfectly match the movie aspect ratio."


Also i stated


"The vga cable can't display an interlaced signal , only a progressive signal.
If you remeber in the vga box on the first xbox you can't see the dashboard because it was interlaced.
Keep in mind the Vga = pc like signal = progressive resolution "

and

" 480p is 720 x 480 for the dvd , this is not a "vga" resolution, and the monitor can't dysplay it.

Here are the resolution the monitor can accept :

640 x 480

800 x 600

1024 x 768

1360 x 768

IF the xbox first downconvert to from 720 x 480 to 640 x 480, you will lose resolution and pictures quality, and even will have a distorsion of the pictures because of the difference of the aspect ratio.

If it is not clear 480p is NOT 640 x 480 , it is 720 x 480 progressive.


This is not a practice solution, even considering that for the pal dvd you have a 576p signal .

How can you display a 576p signal ? 720 x 576 it is not a vga resolution

[/quote]

What do you think ?

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I'm sure the DVD playback software is smart enough to scale the content to whatever output resolution you select. If you want to watch 720x768 on a 640x480 display, sure you'll lose quality. But what monitor is limited to that sort of resolution anyway? More likely you'll connect over VGA at 800x600 and above, and the DVD content will be upscaled accordingly, with letterboxing when needed for widescreen content on a 4:3 aspect.

 

[iknowall]

I'm sure the DVD playback software is smart enough to scale the content to whatever output resolution you select. If you want to watch 720x768 on a 640x480 display, sure you'll lose quality. But what monitor is limited to that sort of resolution anyway? More likely you'll connect over VGA at 800x600 and above, and the DVD content will be upscaled accordingly, with letterboxing when needed for widescreen content on a 4:3 aspect.

Since you are using a vga calbe, you are limited using a vga resolution.

You can set the xbox360 dashboarrd at 1360 x 768 resolution to perfectly math the native resolution of the new lcd hdtvs.


Yes, i also think the more logical choise would be to upscale the dvd resolution to the actual screen resolution just like happens with the pc, but the problem is that microsoft have stated the xbox360 WILL NOT upscale dvd resolution over 480p.

SO this is not true and it will upscale over vga ?

That's the question.

p.s. Why i can't edit my own post ?

 

[Sis]

Do the xbox downsample the dvd to 640 x 480 ? But this would cause some trouble since 640 x 480 is 4/3 and the movie aspect ratio will not fit good in this resolution.
...
" 480p is 720 x 480 for the dvd , this is not a "vga" resolution, and the monitor can't dysplay it.

...
If it is not clear 480p is NOT 640 x 480 , it is 720 x 480 progressive.

Actually, 480p is 640X480 progressive, meaning it's not interlaced. Watching a DVD "enhanced for widescreen" or "enhanced for 16X9" simply means they used an anamorphic transfer, where the image is horizontally squished. When this is played on a widescreen TV, the TV stretches the image. This allows for more vertical lines of resolution.

On a 4X3 set, the player tweaks the squished image and adds the black bars.

The Xbox 360 will be outputting 640X480 in progressive scan mode over VGA--I am 99% certain of this.

.Sis

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Yes, i also think the more logical choise would be to upscale the dvd resolution to the actual screen resolution just like happens with the pc, but the problem is that microsoft have stated the xbox360 WILL NOT upscale dvd resolution over 480p.

I'm not aware of that. Seems daft to output 800x600 but only supply a 480p resolution. Do you have a link to this?

p.s. Why i can't edit my own post ?

You're new. You have to hang around a while before you're allowed to edit.

 

[iknowall]

Actually, 480p is 640X480 progressive, meaning it's not interlaced.

No, 480p is not 640 x 480, it is 720 x 480 progressive. The 480p is a ntsc EDTV standard, wich is 720 x 480 progressive resolution.

Every Ntsc dvd have a resolution of 720 x 480, not 640 x 480.

When you use progressive dvd player you have a 720 x 480 progressive image, not a 640 x 480 image.


The 640 x 480 is a vga resolution used in the pc area.

Watching a DVD "enhanced for widescreen" or "enhanced for 16X9" simply means they used an anamorphic transfer, where the image is horizontally squished. When this is played on a widescreen TV, the TV stretches the image. This allows for more vertical lines of resolution.

On a 4X3 set, the player tweaks the squished image and adds the black bars.

The Xbox 360 will be outputting 640X480 in progressive scan mode over VGA--I am 99% certain of this.

.Sis

So you are saiyng that both NTSC dvd will be downscaled from 720 x 480 and from 720 x 576 to a resolution of 640 x 480 ?

This will cause some problem :

1) 720 x 480 have different aspect ration whan 640 x 480

2) downscaling the image to 640 x 480 and when the monitor upscale it again to fit the it's native lcd resolution will make lose a lot of quality .

If this is true, the dvd over vga will have a worse image quality when using the component cable.

 

[Sis]

I'm not aware of that. Seems daft to output 800x600 but only supply a 480p resolution. Do you have a link to this?

Legal issues: upscaling of protected DVD content is only allowed over a digital signal.

It's the same reason why I couldn't play DVD's on my HTPC over my component cables--until I found AnyDVD that is. It's quite outrageous that movie studios get to tell me how I'll watch movies...

.Sis

 

[iknowall]

I'm not aware of that. Seems daft to output 800x600 but only supply a 480p resolution. Do you have a link to this?
You're new. You have to hang around a while before you're allowed to edit.

Well the xbox360 dvd output is limited at 480p over component :

http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25647


"DVD Playback

The DVD playback is progressive scan and limited to 480p It won't output in 720p or 1080i. It's better than the Xbox DVD player's quality and is a perfectly fine solution for the average person. I still prefer my HTPC and scaling to 720p though."


Even the upcaling dvd players upscale the image over 480p only from the Hdmi port .I think this is a legal issue that can't allow dvd players to upscale the dvd over component.

 

[kyleb]

I'm pretty sure it isn't a legal issue as I have done quite a bit of looking for the law behind it and best I can tell there isn't one; and there are a few DVD players that do still upscale on anolog so my guess is that it is just an agreement between indutsrty forums. Also, the argeement or possably law or whatever obviously doesn't extend to PCs as we watch upscaled DVDs over analog connections all the time, and I'm not sure what Sis's issue was but I have watched DVD's at 720p over component out on my Radeon without any issue at all.


Also, Iiknowall, have you acutally tried 720x480 on your LCD? I've got a Plasma and a pair of CRTs that all only list certian resolutions in their manuals but all run at 720x480 just fine as well as just about any reolution you can think of up to their maximum resolutions.

 

[kyleb]

d/p

 

[iknowall]

I'm pretty sure it isn't a legal issue as I have done quite a bit of looking for the law behind it and best I can tell there isn't one; and there are a few DVD players that do still upscale on anolog so my guess is that it is just an agreement between indutsrty forums. Also, the argeement or possably law or whatever obviously doesn't extend to PCs as we watch upscaled DVDs over analog connections all the time, and I'm not sure what Sis's issue was but I have watched DVD's at 720p over component out on my Radeon without any issue at all.

Well over vga with the pc you can upscale all you want without any trouble.

Maybe using the vga cable the xbox360 can upscale also beause it is considered like a pc upscaling the image to a pc monitor.

Also, Iiknowall, have you acutally tried 720x480 on your LCD? I've got a plasma and a pair of CRTs that all only list certian resolutions in their manuals but all run at 720x480 just fine as well as just about any reolution you can think of up to their maximum resolutions.

Where are different type of signal and different type of resolution standard when you deal with the vga standard.

Yes over component where are no problem, component is a video connection and the 720 x 480 is a standard supported resolution.


Over vga you have no choise for 720 x 480 , you can use only pc vga resolutions like 640 x 480, 800 x 600 , 1024 x 768 , 1360 x 768 , ecc ecc.

 

[Zaphod]

Aspect ratio shouldn't be a problem at all for anamorphic content. For letterboxed content you may have to adjust the scaling function on your TV manually. The question is really wether the scaler in the TV would do a better job than scaling the content on the Xbox, which in this case is irrelevant becuase the Xbox simply won't do it, so it's all left up to the TV by default.

Such limitations will be much more relevant on the HTPC end as Vista and DVD players (without modification/software that may or may not be illegal depending on location) won't allow people to choose to have local filters to all image manipulation and then send the signal to the TV in its native resolution.

BTW: I'm sure they'll try to outlaw better than point filtered scaling on TVs next. Can't allow consumers to have hardware that will alter the output of a DVD like that, you know. Upscaling should be the exclusive right of the copyright holder. I mean they've god HD content to sell, no?. Imagine if someone could just have their TV upscale content as they please?! No. Buy 720x576/480 content - watch it at that resolution, I say...

Err... Sorry about that last paragraph. Nevermind me...

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Well the xbox360 dvd output is limited at 480p over component :

http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25647

If you got an HDTV, it'll already accept 480p DVD and upscale it itself. A single output resolution probably simplifies things a little for end users. 480p isn't a VGA resolution so they can't transmit that over the VGA cable. Hence they either scale the image or have a thumbnail view. I don't think MS are that daft to limit playback over VGA to a 480p image size when the screen size is much larger. I'm not convinced DVD playback over VGA won't be scaled. It's illogical. I'd have to see an official statement of the fact, or a report from someone with an XB360.

 

[Sis]

I'm pretty sure it isn't a legal issue as I have done quite a bit of looking for the law behind it and best I can tell there isn't one; and there are a few DVD players that do still upscale on anolog so my guess is that it is just an agreement between indutsrty forums. Also, the argeement or possably law or whatever obviously doesn't extend to PCs as we watch upscaled DVDs over analog connections all the time, and I'm not sure what Sis's issue was but I have watched DVD's at 720p over component out on my Radeon without any issue at all.

Some decoders enforce it, some don't (usually the older versions). Some people reported a problem after a driver update of their card, but I had it from the get go on a 7800GT. However, the exact issue is that the DVD decoder will not decode the DVD if the output is over an analog signal and the content of the DVD is marked protected. I used the term "legal issue" too loosely, since I'm not sure if it's a case of the companies producing decoders are worried about loosing their DVD license (or whatever it's called--the license granted to use the patents held by the DVD consortium in order to legally write decoders) or if they're actually worried about getting sued.

There is software out there that strips this protection flag information at the driver level. Also, it let's you skip straight to the menu. It's goodness.

.Sis

 

[kyleb]

Well over vga with the pc you can upscale all you want without any trouble.

Maybe using the vga cable the xbox360 can upscale also beause it is considered like a pc upscaling the image to a pc monitor.

Sure, but I'm pointing out the fact that playing DVDs at 720p over component on my PC works fine as well.

Where are different type of signal and different type of resolution standard when you deal with the vga standard.

Yes over component where are no problem, component is a video connection and the 720 x 480 is a standard supported resolution.


Over vga you have no choise for 720 x 480 , you can use only pc vga resolutions like 640 x 480, 800 x 600 , 1024 x 768 , 1360 x 768 , ecc ecc.

And here I am telling you that I have two displays hooked up by VGA right here and one in the back room and all three will run 720x480 without any issue at all.

 

[Sis]

No, 480p is not 640 x 480, it is 720 x 480 progressive. The 480p is a ntsc EDTV standard, wich is 720 x 480 progressive resolution.

Every Ntsc dvd have a resolution of 720 x 480, not 640 x 480.

When you use progressive dvd player you have a 720 x 480 progressive image, not a 640 x 480 image.


The 640 x 480 is a vga resolution used in the pc area.

I'm sorry--maybe I'm being dense. What aspect ratio does 720 by 480 conform to? Looks to me like 3X2. 640 for 480 is a 4X3 aspect ratio. For a 720 horizontal resolution, you'd need 540 vertical to conform to 4X3. What am I missing?

.Sis

 

[kyleb]

Its just not meant to be sqare pxiels and it is used for both 4:3 and 16:9 content.

 

[iknowall]

And here I am telling you that I have two displays hooked up by VGA right here and one in the back room and all three will run 720x480 without any issue at all.

Yes but the source it is not giving a 720 x 480 signal . The question here is about the source , not the display.

Your pc native resolution it is not 720 x 480. Or are saying that you can set your pc desktop to 720 x 480 ?

Sorry but if you don't give me a picture of your PC control panel dysplay setting i find hard to beleave that you can use 720 x 480 desktop resolution with your Pc.

Unless you use some program to force your graphic card to use an unsupported resolution like 720 x 480 , where is no way you can set you desktop to use a 720 x 480 resolution.

 

[Hardknock]

Someone needs to email MS to get an answer, it's pointless guessing back and forth.

 

[iknowall]

I'm sorry--maybe I'm being dense. What aspect ratio does 720 by 480 conform to? Looks to me like 3X2. 640 for 480 is a 4X3 aspect ratio. For a 720 horizontal resolution, you'd need 540 vertical to conform to 4X3. What am I missing?

.Sis

Well the aspect ratio of the 16/9 resolution is 1.77/1.
Movie most used aspect ratio is 1.85/1 or 2.35/1 so you will see black bar on the screen aven if the movie is 16/9 .