Xbox : What should MS do next? *spawn

There has been no indication that ESRAM is a benefit. Why add that to Xbox Two?

It is still too early to know if it provides any benefit.
What is up with all this Xbox two talk anyway? I guess alot of you guys have already decided the Xbox One is dead. It is not in any worse shape than the Ps360 were at this point in their lifetime. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but how about we wait holiday 2015 before we burn the body.
 
Xbox Two in 2017:

64Mb ESRAM, 12Gb DDR4 (or more esoteric ram ie. stacked or HBM), same CPU but upclocked, GPU marginally improved on current PS4. ( more units more rops)

A VM profile that presents, what is essentially an Xbox One for existing Xbox One games,
and a new VM profile that lets newer games access all of the hardware.
Devs build to PS4, Xbox One, PC, and a new Xbox Two profile.
given the similarities between all platforms, I don't see that the additional Xbox two profile would be a huge overhead.

Introduce $399, drop Xbox One to $199 or $250,
OR
a iphone like plan where u get, 2 or 3 years Gold, + Xbox Two + included access to all off the Call of Duties, battlefield, and titanfall + maybe more, games released while your in contract.
$25 a month over 3 years, and they will capture a LOT of marketshare.

Visually games for the XboxTwo profile/Hw would wipe the floor with anything the PS4 can produce,
devs will be starting to get the most out of the ESRAM, giving them more and faster but still letting them use techniques they know.

of course may still lag the PC in pure gfx quality, and the hardware i stated would still not be enough for 4k games.
 
I don't see Microsoft releasing an "Xbox Two" several years down the road and be like Xbox One but with higher specs. I'm in the camp that thinks Microsoft should go with a full generational leap in 2018 or 2019 (5 or 6 years) and if it's possible to make it backward compatible with Xbox One games, fine, but don't let that hold back the architecture of the next console.

For Sony it would be easier. PS4 has no ESRAM to worry about. It's an easy, straight forward console to develop for. It's also been highly successful so far. Not that Xbox One isn't successful, but it hasn't been on the same level as PS4 sales. Anyway, PS5 should naturally be compatible with PS4 games, while offering enough of a leap in performance to make it worthwhile in 2018 or 2019.

I'm not a believer in offering modest upgrades every 2 or 3 years in the console space. It works for Apple but it won't work for consoles. I do think the 7 and 8 year cycle is too long though. A "normal" 5 or 6 years is fine. It's neither too long (as 7-8 years was) nor too short (as 2-4 years would be).

Nintendo has the toughest choice to make. Launch in 2016, giving the Wii U only 4 years (from 2012), or launch in 2017, giving them at least 1 year, maybe 2, before the next Xbox and PlayStation hit the market in 2018/2019.
 
Compatibility. Making XBToo work with XBOne games would mean directing code that's looking for ESRAM to something suitable. The obvious solution is ESRAM, although I reckon it can be worked around and plain old RAM will suffice. Highly efficient code could end up looking for fast, low latency data that may not be a nice fit for a different memory topology, or such code might never appear.

ESRAM really was a bad move. Had Ms gone with a more straightforward HW like PS4, FC/BC would have been a shoe-in and they could run XB as a DirectX platform as they originally envisioned. Could have even added super-easy portability to PC - one codebase, PC+consoles covered.

The ESRAM appears as a bad move when doing a post-mortem analysis and taking into consideration that competition managed to get a straightforward and better bandwidth memory solution that everyone did not expect.

The ESRAM gives a nice boost to the memory. MS was betting that this would have been a technical advantage that Sony wouldnt mimic in a like for like situation.

Sony could have been an 8GB DDR3 or a 4-6GB GDDR5 while lacking the benefits of ESRAM. If these were the eventual memory solutions the ESRAM might have shown clear benefits in terms of performance

Kudos for Sony being successfully secretive with the actual memory secured.

I feel that when MS was evaluating the possible technologies that compeition would incorporate in the PS4 they saw 8GB GDDR5 as one of the least possible scenarios.

Potentially the PS4 and XBOX1 would have been a similar situation to the PS3 and 360 minus the unified memory advantage of past generation.
 
If MS launch an Xbox OneAndAnHalf in 2017, the only thing that sony would have to do will be to just talk how much powerfull will be the ps5 in 2019 with stacked memory, opengl5, twice the cores ecc, and will be dreamcast again
 
Dreamcast was very, very powerful. Failed because Sega were in no shape to compete any more. Xbonx 360 worked because MS were in a position to compete.

No company wants to talk about how their system - coming in a couple of years - is going to make their current system worthless. It's a risky business. Sort-of worked for Sony at E3 2005 because they lied through their teeth. Might not work again.

(E3 2005 Sony were assholes and them getting a beat down did the console industry a lot of good. 2014 Sony are rocking hard and I don't want them to go back to the bad old days by bullshitting. "TV Reveal Tent" MS were deluded morons who got beat down hard and are now recovering their self respect. I don't want them to regress either. Come on guys, lets keep it honest.)

If MS released a console in 2017 it would need to be the right hardware for that time. Sony would be unlikely to have realistic access to a better process node within the next couple of years. It could work fine as long as MS come with the right product.

What MS need to do right now, and until they release a new systems whether that's 2017 or 2019 or whatever, is make Xbonex work and play to its strengths.
 
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Instead of an interim confusing console, something new would be creating a new hardware profile in visual studio and allow the access only to a subset of the hardware (es: half the ddr3 bw, 4 cpu cores, and no esram) and virtualize it in the running machine.
So that MS can release a really inexpensive xboxTV with all the multimedia feature of the regular One, the apps, and a subset of arcade games.
This way they can build a box with an off-the-shelf amd apu and sell it and all their service to a different market segment.
Then after a year they can present the xboxTV 2016 with double the ram and a slightly faster apu that allow access to some more arcade games and tv recording at greater resolution.

Who wants the full experince can still buy the xbox one.
It would be an healthy ecosystem.

Then in 2019, when the xboxTV would be somehow near the performance of the One, they release the Xbox Halo with covenant technology, and an update to the crossplatform sdk.

Pros:
After more than 15 years finally enter in that #@][?% of livingroom
Sell service to a lot of people tha care little for games and don't want to spend more than 99$
Virtualizing the hardware and/or using only managed code at some point they can switch to arm, maybe for the 49$ model, and keep the compatibility to the software.

Cons:
Down the road there will be a 199$ one, and a less powerfull but still attractive xboxTV 2019, so they would have a bigger ecosystem, but lower number of one in th market, and this would reduce developers' investments in the platform.
At some point some investor would ask why have the Xbox Halo if you can have a bigger return cutting r&d and shipping just the xboxTV 2020.
Watered down xbox brand, but actually with xbox anything is less strong that it was before 2012
 
If MS launch an Xbox OneAndAnHalf in 2017, the only thing that sony would have to do will be to just talk how much powerfull will be the ps5 in 2019 with stacked memory, opengl5, twice the cores ecc, and will be dreamcast again
Or Sony can do the same. Why not a PS4.5 with doubled up whatever, full HW BC?
 
No company wants to talk about how their system - coming in a couple of years - is going to make their current system worthless. It's a risky business. Sort-of worked for Sony at E3 2005 because they lied through their teeth. Might not work again.

(E3 2005 Sony were assholes and them getting a beat down did the console industry a lot of good. 2014 Sony are rocking hard and I don't want them to go back to the bad old days by bullshitting. "TV Reveal Tent" MS were deluded morons who got beat down hard and are now recovering their self respect. I don't want them to regress either. Come on guys, lets keep it honest.)
I am pretty sure there was a huge miscommunication between departments and executives in 2005 who also barely sat down with developers. They were too confident and everyone probably just minded their own business in isolation from the big picture due to the amazing success they enjoyed with the PS1 and PS2.

Phil Harrison wasnt a technical guy. I doubt he had an idea about the console's capabilities in practice. I doubt that he even got enough briefing. I remember an interview with one of the guys at Evolution Studio, who said that when they were shown the target renders they were asking if they "could ever do that". They were asked to create a demo and they showed something rough at a meeting Phil told them that they "were the worst guys in the world". He most likely didnt know what to really expect from the console and was in big pressure to prove that the 2005 E3 conference was the real deal.
http://kotaku.com/5082624/motorstorms-target-render-pissed-us-off-a-lot-say-devs

Jack Tretton is a PR guy. I doubt he ever got in touch with the products real life capabilities.

Ken? Ken was probably the only guy on stage who knew more. And he was a one man show during the whole process. He shot expectations over the roof regarding his brain child Cell. He probably convinced the whole company that Cell would make the PS3 a rendering power house. I think he didnt even care to sit down with the devs and see the real world performance. He wanted to sell the idea and concept of Cell to the world. Its stupid. I think Mark Cerny hinted at this lack of communication in one of his presentations.

And those CGI trailers? They probably told their marketing department to come up with something which in turn as a marketing department-(the masters of PR who's job wasnt to check technical matters) they set some marketing goals and told some CGI studios to meet them.

Sony was suffering from large compartmentalization and Ken was sitting at the top of it making his own decisions and selling the idea and promise to the rest who acted based on confidence and faith from his previous successful work. He probably wanted to caress the ears of the investors and his bosses and wasnt in touch with the real world product.

Even devs were promised better performance than what ended up in the box. I will never forget the real time demo of MGS4 and how it ended up looking at the end. It was still beautiful but in many areas it was a far cry. Looking back, MGS4's initial reveal might have been able to compete even with current gen games in some areas.

I think different departments at Sony didnt know how the product would finally perform until devs finally got their hands on the finished hardware. Its stupid.


I mean..even WE were convinced that the PS3 was going to obliterate everything...even after the price was announced we continued to vote that the PS3 was going to dominate in polls. Even if they didnt show the target renders, we were all hearing about the Cell project probably since 2001, we knew it had a BR drive, we all heard that it had a large HDD by standard, it was backwards compatible, it could even run Linux, we all expected PS exclusives to remain exclusives and carry over, we all saw the success of the PS1 and PS2. We all "fell" for it and I am sure we would fall for it no matter what. The target renders sweetened things even more.

None of this was the case with MS.
 
Or Sony can do the same. Why not a PS4.5 with doubled up whatever, full HW BC?


We are a bit off topic from x1; but I'm fairly positive this sorta exists already?

They are moving forward with their tv, vita, mobile, Bravia streaming gaming right?
 
An XboxTV is that plays Arcade games isn't possible since there is no distinction between disc or digital. Games are games are games. They all have access to the same resources. Now if MS opens up the Windows Store apps to the XB1, then that might work. Personally I think the cheap set-top box idea is dead. The only possible idea might be a Chromecast-like dongle to stream XB1 content to other TVs in the house.



Tommy McClain
 
We are a bit off topic from x1;
Yeah, not sure how much freedom the thread warrants. It's hard to talk choices without evaluating the rest of the market, but the recent posts on frickin' 2005 points to a short-lived crap-fest thread. Let's see what happens...
 
No company wants to talk about how their system - coming in a couple of years - is going to make their current system worthless. It's a risky business. Sort-of worked for Sony at E3 2005 because they lied through their teeth. Might not work again.

This time when we add some confimation about the new generation? One or two years before?

At the time of the dreamcast there was faith in sony, and anyone was expecting the perceived full experienxe instead of having now the perceived half one.

And when the 360 launched, a lot of people remained at the window waiting to see if the ps3 was really able to render at 120fps in odorama.
 
Yeah, not sure how much freedom the thread warrants. It's hard to talk choices without evaluating the rest of the market, but the recent posts on frickin' 2005 points to a short-lived crap-fest thread. Let's see what happens...

2005 was the last time someone (MS again in this case) tried to get a head start on the next gen to 'refresh' their prospects after a difficult generation.

What happened to them then, would likely to be what happened again. I think it's entirely relevant. And if the situation were reversed I don't doubt that MS execs would try the same shit on Sony. The current MS and Sony krews seem cool, but arrogance or desperation can easily cause key players to change around.

Whoever launches first will run into a barrage of misrepresentation of their product and misleading expectations about a competitor product. And that's something that needs to be managed, and it's something that either MS or Sony would take into account in determining strategy, IMO.

MS's approach with the 360 was to go in hard - loss lead (massively), get the best GPU on the market - that wasn't even on the market yet - and turbo charge the clocks so they landed with the most powerful system they could.

Would they do the same this time? I guess a lot depends on whether they could present their next console as "next gen" or take the phone/PC route and successfully market an evolution of the existing platform.

because of why invest in r&d for an interim product?

In the PC and phone space I guess you could say that almost everything is an interim product ... :s

Nothing to stop Sony doing this, of course, but they'd need to go somewhere entirely new for memory. HBM could be it, but then again, DDR4 was supposed to be here 250 years ago and so HBM might not be just around the corner for an 'interim' upgrade.

MS could conceivably "double up" on everything as soon as 20 nm is churning out wafers. Not sure how that would work out for them though, as it might not be received well ...
 
because of why invest in r&d for an interim product?
Same argument for MS. And R&D for Sony would be a lot cheaper as they just need AMD to provide a new APU, maybe with a new RAM model (stacked). That's assuming Sony's customisations are part of AMD's DNA now and will be integrate in AMD's APUs as standard.
 
They all have access to the same resources.

well... at least before they start to code for crossplatform u.u

I'm very impressed by asplhalt 9 running on my humble i3-3000M, it's even freemium.
If they can make a version that runs both on the One and the Tv wouldn't be good for them?
 
This time when we add some confimation about the new generation? One or two years before?

At the time of the dreamcast there was faith in sony, and anyone was expecting the perceived full experienxe instead of having now the perceived half one.

And when the 360 launched, a lot of people remained at the window waiting to see if the ps3 was really able to render at 120fps in odorama.

I'm not sure how much it's in your interests to reveal hard details about your new platform coming in a year and a half, unless you're really scared of your competitors new thing. Fud is a powerful ally to the Fud caster, and after the well deserved success of PS4 Sony will again be in a position to cast doubt on an early-arriving Xbox 4 without giving their hand away.

240 fps stereo odorama? :eek:
 
Same argument for MS. And R&D for Sony would be a lot cheaper as they just need AMD to provide a new APU, maybe with a new RAM model (stacked). That's assuming Sony's customisations are part of AMD's DNA now and will be integrate in AMD's APUs as standard.

The biggest argument against a PS4.5 is probably that Sony don't need one. If you can sit on mature tech raking money in while you prepare for your Next Big Thing, that has to be quite a disincentive not to pour money into 'interim' devices ...
 
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