Xbox Business Update Podcast | Xbox Everywhere Direction Discussion

What will Xbox do

  • Player owned digital libraries now on cloud

    Votes: 3 23.1%
  • Multiplatform all exclusives to all platforms

    Votes: 3 23.1%
  • Multiplatform only select exclusive titles

    Votes: 8 61.5%
  • Surface hardware strategy

    Votes: 2 15.4%
  • 3rd party hardware strategy

    Votes: 2 15.4%
  • Mobile hardware strategy

    Votes: 1 7.7%
  • Slim Revision hardware strategy

    Votes: 1 7.7%
  • This will be a nothing burger

    Votes: 4 30.8%
  • *new* Xbox Games for Mobile Strategy

    Votes: 2 15.4%
  • *new* Executive leadership changes (ie: named leaders moves/exits/retires)

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    13
  • Poll closed .
Yes, because the cost is distributed across multiple users. The cost of a console has to be paid for by one player, whereas the cost of a server can be paid for by multiple who time-share it.

Because consoles are still affordable. If PS5 cost $1500, GeForce Now would be seeing a lot more interest. As console prices go up, streaming becomes more viable.


So you are predicting a stagnant gaming space where hardware effectively plateaus with, what, PS6?
Let's not make straw man arguments. Also, the era of a single console for platform holder is probably over. They aren't making a 700$ PS6 and telling people to get two jobs to afford it. An affordable option will be there, with lower specs.

Will hardware plateau with the PS6 gen? No, but diminishing returns for graphics will be even more of a problem after it. It will be smaller and smaller improvements until even enthusiasts like us will struggle to notice a difference.
 
Let's not make straw man arguments. Also, the era of a single console for platform holder is probably over. They aren't making a 700$ PS6 and telling people to get two jobs to afford it. An affordable option will be there, with lower specs.

Will hardware plateau with the PS6 gen? No, but diminishing returns for graphics will be even more of a problem after it. It will be smaller and smaller improvements until even enthusiasts like us will struggle to notice a difference.
Why bother with a new console at all then ?
It’s cost a ton to migrate your base to a new console and the majority of profits are made from software sales.
 
Why bother with a new console at all then ?
It’s cost a ton to migrate your base to a new console and the majority of profits are made from software sales.
To me it's pretty clear that generations are over. At some point there will be no investment to try and migrate users. PS5 will probably get games for as long as developers want, and Sony will not pressure them to make PS6 exclusives.

And it's for the best, developers need software sales, not an improvement to base hardware specs.
 
Yes, because the cost is distributed across multiple users. The cost of a console has to be paid for by one player, whereas the cost of a server can be paid for by multiple who time-share it.
I'm not sure this is how the math works in this case. When it comes to gaming, data centers generate massive waste for operators. Not only do you have to be provisioned for your peak demand, you have to be provisioned in each region individually. You can't rely on geo redundancy like you could for things that don't care about latency. Your US data center won't run games for European users when Americans are fast asleep. So even if you amortize cloud hardware over multiple users over time, you also amortize console development cost over multiple buyers over time. There is a fixed price of "adding" new account to your cloud service and as an operator you're not going to just swallow it - you'll push it to enduser. So thinking that this cost somehow dissipates and cloud is zero cost for gamers whereas console isn't is bogus.
 
To me it's pretty clear that generations are over. At some point there will be no investment to try and migrate users. PS5 will probably get games for as long as developers want, and Sony will not pressure them to make PS6 exclusives.

And it's for the best, developers need software sales, not an improvement to base hardware specs.
I don't understand your argument at all then, and you haven't given a clear answer. You've argued that cloud won't happen because local consoles will always be preferable, but now you say local consoles will plateau. So you think gamers won't look at their 2030 tier graphics on their console, and the 2040 era graphics available on game streaming, and want the latter?

So even if you amortize cloud hardware over multiple users over time, you also amortize console development cost over multiple buyers over time.
Not sure where console development cost comes into it. I'm saying the hardware costs to manufacture a machine capable of serving a gamer's needs will be amortised across users, so more hardware can be used, enabling generational advancements in games beyond the possibility of local machines. That is, $3000 of hardware for one user won't fly, but $3000 for 5 users will.

There won't be console development cost. You'll just grab some PC config and run with it.
There is a fixed price of "adding" new account to your cloud service and as an operator you're not going to just swallow it - you'll push it to enduser. So thinking that this cost somehow dissipates and cloud is zero cost for gamers whereas console isn't is bogus.
Who said its zero cost to the end user?? It'll be a choice between a $1200 up front cost or $30 a month for 5 years at $1800. In 2060 it'll be $3000 for a console or $55 a month.

Putting it another way, the limiting factor is cost of hardware. There's an upper ceiling of hardware that console gamers will buy. Let's say that's $700 and beyond that you just won't have a market. You will have a hardware limit of $700 worth of CPU and GPU and RAM and what you can achieve with that will be marginally better than previous generations. Now if five people pool their funds, they can buy $3500 of hardware and get a notably better experience than the $700 individual option, though they'll then have to share that machine. That's what cloud computing will be. Now if gamers are happy to stick with $700 of hardware for decades with barely any improvement, and 15 year long generations, then cloud won't happen. But if gamers want bigger and better and more realistic, and there's no scope to enable that in local hardware, where else can the solution come from other than cloud gaming?
 
I don't understand your argument at all then, and you haven't given a clear answer. You've argued that cloud won't happen because local consoles will always be preferable, but now you say local consoles will plateau. So you think gamers won't look at their 2030 tier graphics on their console, and the 2040 era graphics available on game streaming, and want the latter?
In a nutshell, my argument is:

•Most people don't care about the highest end graphics

•diminishing returns are narrowing the difference between graphics on low end hardware and the high end

•you need a lot of users to scale up the cloud to offer an improvement from experiences available on local hardware

•selling a service that offers the highest end graphics and streaming it to the user at low prices in probably impossible

Nobody will offer 2040 graphics in 2030, unless they want to waste millions of dollars.
 
Your argument is predicated on graphics advancement stagnation, which I find highly doubtful. People will want better graphics.

I can just imagine the argument at Sony HQ.

Exec 1: "MS is going to iron out the kinks in this cloud thing and offer mind blowing graphics to GamePass subscribers for the same overall price that we charge for PS5. What do you think?"
Exec 2: " Who cares about graphics anyway? We need more GaaS games. Yeah, that's the ticket."

All kidding aside, I think people who think the cloud isn't viable are the same sort of people that thought broadband Internet in practically every home wasn't going to happen when I talked to them 20 years ago. I remember people arguing that MS was stupid for putting a hard drive and ethernet standard in every OG Xbox.

Cloud is coming. Some people are just in denial about it.
 
In a nutshell, my argument is:

•Most people don't care about the highest end graphics

•diminishing returns are narrowing the difference between graphics on low end hardware and the high end

•you need a lot of users to scale up the cloud to offer an improvement from experiences available on local hardware

•selling a service that offers the highest end graphics and streaming it to the user at low prices in probably impossible

Nobody will offer 2040 graphics in 2030, unless they want to waste millions of dollars.
So the end of home gaming advances and gamers are going to accept the hardware limits and neither care for expensive new hardware that's clearly better nor expensive streamed gaming that's better.

I guess that is an option. In essence, PS6 will be 'good enough' for decades and we'll never hit photoaccurate gaming.
 
So the end of home gaming advances and gamers are going to accept the hardware limits and neither care for expensive new hardware that's clearly better nor expensive streamed gaming that's better.

I guess that is an option. In essence, PS6 will be 'good enough' for decades and we'll never hit photoaccurate gaming.
We have 300€ graphics cards that have been stagnant for many years, phones, cameras, TV's, CPU's offering minor upgrades every year, and still people buy them anyways. This same stagnation will and is hitting gaming too, and there isn't much that we can do about it.
 
We have 300€ graphics cards that have been stagnant for many years, phones, cameras, TV's, CPU's offering minor upgrades every year, and still people buy them anyways. This same stagnation will and is hitting gaming too, and there isn't much that we can do about it.
Except there is, because we can move to a different model. ;) Your examples have basically hit 'good enough' and don't necessarily need to be better as that contributes very little improvement to the end user experience (though debatable; mobile advances are seeing more technical games on mobiles - mobile gamers aren't content to stick with 2015 level mobile graphics forever) . In contrast, the end-point of video games, photoaccuracy, is a long way off still. A better phone or camera to what we have now won't make any real difference, whereas a console or platform that can create games like reality will.
 
In contrast, the end-point of video games, photoaccuracy, is a long way off still.
It isn't just graphics, though. Simulation has a long way to go as well. Hardware advances may not offer immediate graphical improvements, but could offer improvements to gameplay that can't be seen in screenshots. And there is always the promise that the power of the cloud enabling games that could never have been achieved otherwise.
 
Yes, I'm thinking of that in my term. I don't know that there's a term for physical realism - climb anywhere, destructible, no invisible walls, lifelike characters, advanced AI, etc. I guess I could say 'lifelike games'.
 
Another thing to consider is that MS has uses for compute in the "off" hours because of their other cloud market. Azure by day. XCloud by night. Maybe XCloud designed for games isn't as efficient for general compute, but maybe still able to offset costs anyway.
 
I'm not arguing that graphics and systems in games don't have a long way to go. Just that the advancements are getting harder and harder to notice. And most of all, both the user base and the economics just aren't there for big cloud gaming with the current tech.
 
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Except there is, because we can move to a different model. ;) Your examples have basically hit 'good enough' and don't necessarily need to be better as that contributes very little improvement to the end user experience (though debatable; mobile advances are seeing more technical games on mobiles - mobile gamers aren't content to stick with 2015 level mobile graphics forever) . In contrast, the end-point of video games, photoaccuracy, is a long way off still. A better phone or camera to what we have now won't make any real difference, whereas a console or platform that can create games like reality will.
This, we are between 20-40 years away from this. We need to eventually have mobile devices that can hit photorealism and we dont even yet have home consoles that can do this. There's still a long way to go that requires advancements in materials, process nodes, architectural paradigms, software stacks tools and AI,etc.
 
Haven't we heard this for ten years now?
Perhaps, but as the market and tech changes, it increases the possibility of it finally happening. VR is going to go large at some point, but not while headsets are cumbersome. If the tech becomes like sunglasses and affordable, it'll get a different lease of life versus what we've seen since the 90s.

I'll contrast that with 3D movies/TV that just didn't resonate and aren't dependent on tech enabling it. Regardless how good the tech gets, people aren't interested. They may be interested in 3D 'holographic' projections though if that tech ever exists in suitable form.
 
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