Xbox 360 price drop to $299 confirmed, Pro phased out

I just saw on our Dutch aggregate that the headline for the price changes is 'Microsoft no longer wants to lose money on the Xbox' and details the price hike first, only to mention the lowered price for the Elite later on. I guess that's a big risk with these kinds of things.

In the comments a shop employee actually mentions that he's been told by a Microsoft representative that the Arcade unit will be phased out. I think that in the Netherlands that makes a lot of sense. I don't think the Arcade sells very well here, for various reasons, and since the boxes are localised its harder to ship them around to other areas in the E.U. But it could be something that's coming for more countries.
 
I doubt it. The Arcade/Core has been a target from day one, but it remains.

In fact as I understand it, Europe was a big part of the whole decision to do that SKU, as they were considered more "price conscious". When the core was selling pitifully in USA, I recall MS saying it was selling pretty well in Europe.
 
I doubt it. The Arcade/Core has been a target from day one, but it remains.

In fact as I understand it, Europe was a big part of the whole decision to do that SKU, as they were considered more "price conscious". When the core was selling pitifully in USA, I recall MS saying it was selling pretty well in Europe.

Yes, but Europe is big. There are countries with poor residents and low internet distribution, and countries with wealthy residents with higher broadband online ratios than say the U.S. and everything inbetween. I didn't say it would disappear from Europe, but suggested it could be disappearing from more European countries.
 
It is easy to see that the Arcade is here to stay. As long as XBox Live Silver penetration is lower than 100% (and I'm sure it is much lower than that), it means that there are people who have no use for the HDD at all. Therefore, a lower priced HDD-less 360 would represent the best value for them.

As a power user, it is easy to forget that some people don't use the "full potential" of their console, in the case of the 360: XBLA, Marketplace, Video's, DLC, installs, etc. But for many technically less inclined, just turning on the console and playing a game is an achievement in itself. :) Personally, my 360 feels neutered whenever I don't connect it to Xbox Live. But I'm sure for many this is not the case.
 
I disagree..in the past, MS has shown a willingness to lose money hand over fist, when needed. The best example of that is the original Xbox...
That was essential to start the brand, and also was far higher than it needed to be due to lousy contracts. 'When needed' otherwise counts as 'whenever you want to grow the brand,' which is always! Sooner or later you have to make the call that losses aren't wanted and it's no longer good enough to just lose money to grow userbase.

I doubt it. The Arcade/Core has been a target from day one, but it remains.
It was a target for a price-point. If that pricepoint can be reached with an HDD equipped console, it's no longer needed. The only difference as I understand now between the Arcade and the Pro/Elite is an HDD. Everything else is the same. So the BOM difference is whatever that HDD cost is, which as a board we've never managed to pin down. But let's say $30-40. That means that if an Arcade can be sold at $200, an Elite can be sold at $240. The difference is small enough that it could well be worth reducing the platform down to a single SKU and getting enough extra content sales to offset higher costs. Alternatively, as I see it, the Arcade can be sold as a loss leader to an ignorant general public, and the sales of peripherals (HDD) easily make up the difference.

Still, if it was me calling the shots, I'd be looking to have a single XB360 SKU ASAP. It simplifies production and distribution. The price bands are small enough now that it doesn't warrant a two-tier pricing structure IMO.
 
MS needs to release a much much bigger HD. I've 15 GB free on my elite with two thirds of my games installed.

For the online services they are pitching I need more capacity.

Cheers
I won't be a magic bullet but did you try to reinstal those games since the new NXE is out?
Some games take less room than before, it could help till Ms ship bigger HDD.
 
That was essential to start the brand, and also was far higher than it needed to be due to lousy contracts. 'When needed' otherwise counts as 'whenever you want to grow the brand,' which is always! Sooner or later you have to make the call that losses aren't wanted and it's no longer good enough to just lose money to grow userbase.

It was a target for a price-point. If that pricepoint can be reached with an HDD equipped console, it's no longer needed. The only difference as I understand now between the Arcade and the Pro/Elite is an HDD. Everything else is the same. So the BOM difference is whatever that HDD cost is, which as a board we've never managed to pin down. But let's say $30-40. That means that if an Arcade can be sold at $200, an Elite can be sold at $240. The difference is small enough that it could well be worth reducing the platform down to a single SKU and getting enough extra content sales to offset higher costs. Alternatively, as I see it, the Arcade can be sold as a loss leader to an ignorant general public, and the sales of peripherals (HDD) easily make up the difference.

Still, if it was me calling the shots, I'd be looking to have a single XB360 SKU ASAP. It simplifies production and distribution. The price bands are small enough now that it doesn't warrant a two-tier pricing structure IMO.


If the price point can be reached with an HDD equipped console, then an even lower one can be reached with a non HDD console. I think the price of the HDD gets more important as the prices get lower. It's small potatoes at $300, but it's big potatoes if you're trying to reach $99. As far as single SKU, well, they have simplified things now down from three to two.

Interestingly, GAF has a rumor based on an apparent Amazon Germany listing now pulled, of a Elite with 250GB HDD. IIRC larger HDD's was a component of a Ars rumor at some point as well. I wouldn't be surprised at this. I speculated it made sense just a few posts ago.

Actually the GAF posts specifically says this

Another rumor from Amazon.de

Xbox 360 Elite with 250GB and 2nd Wireless Controller and Forza Motorsport 3 for 279,99€. Amazon.de also had the PS3 slim on pre order before the Sony Press Conference.

http://www.amazon.de/Xbox-360-Wirele.../dp/B002MZZWRM

The 2nd controller and Forza pack in are probably Europe specific, but again things like extra controllers and games might make sense here to sweeten the Elite pot without actually lowering it's price..

Edit: Joystiq writeup
 
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I don't think that the arcade SKU is the real problem, to me the problem is that HDD cost way too much.
Ms should make money out of it just a bit less, it's close to prohibitive as it stands.
Arcade SKU will allow MS to reach 99euros way sooner than Sony. It will have an impact later on.
 
If the price point can be reached with an HDD equipped console, then an even lower one can be reached with a non HDD console. I think the price of the HDD gets more important as the prices get lower. It's small potatoes at $300, but it's big potatoes if you're trying to reach $99.
Except with the current DLC market, it's not a loss in the same way it was on XB. HDD = media sales, even if just to a percentage of the buyers. And it doesn't take much to cover the cost of the HDD. I think it'd be better to take the profit hit and increase the sales-base for all this lovelly DLC, making a bigger point of trying to get buyers to go online. Giving them an HDD off the bat with some free content, download to unlock, would be a big step that way.
 
I also never understood how the "shareholders" thing always comes up on the internet in regards to MS, but never Sony. How does that work? Shouldn't "shareholders" even be pressuring Sony to leave the business altogether if thats the case?

Because this isn't a Sony vs. Microsoft thread. But okay, look at what it took for Sony to get a price cut. A redesigned console, nearly 3 years of being at 3rd place, nearly a year of selling less YoY (as well as slipping in their most important market). Also it seems to me that Sony put forth a pretty clear message of Playstation's importance to the company in their latest reorg -- shareholders should know where the company stands.

Also, you're missing the point. No one's saying that shareholders have a final say in the day-to-day running of the company. What I'm saying is that Microsoft can't simply burn through another half a billion as if they weren't beholden to anyone -- like Scott said, they don't want to be off on their earnings guidance. I'm protesting the notion that because MS has a lot of money (which they do) they can just throw it around. Hell, just like anyone else with a lot of money, part of the reason they have it is because they don't just throw it around.

I'm not saying they will never cut price. I don't think that they'll cut price right now, and if they do it'll probably be next year, when Natal comes out (though I'm betting more on packing in Natal as a value-add). I don't even think they feel that threatened. Fans do, as a lot of the 'well, I'm sure MS has got to lower prices, it just makes sense' rhetoric hinges off a value comparison between the Slim and the new Elite that they find unfavorable.
 
Interestingly, GAF has a rumor based on an apparent Amazon Germany listing now pulled, of a Elite with 250GB HDD. IIRC larger HDD's was a component of a Ars rumor at some point as well. I wouldn't be surprised at this. I speculated it made sense just a few posts ago.

The listing had no photo and a price of 279EUR (I saw it last night). And I thought we had established that anyone can add a product to Amazon. Didn't deepbrown say this sometime back?

It may even be true, but I think it's just rumor-baiting, as it came right after the rumor of a '250Gb Slim with GT5 for $399'. Which isn't that believable either -- we do have FCC filings for a 250Gb slim but there's been no word at all that GT5 is releasing this year. Forza 3 at least is confirmed for this year but I don't know if the 250Gb HDD has been confirmed at all.

They're both possible of course, but not really more than hot air at this point.
 
The listing had no photo and a price of 279EUR (I saw it last night). And I thought we had established that anyone can add a product to Amazon. Didn't deepbrown say this sometime back?

It may even be true, but I think it's just rumor-baiting, as it came right after the rumor of a '250Gb Slim with GT5 for $399'. Which isn't that believable either -- we do have FCC filings for a 250Gb slim but there's been no word at all that GT5 is releasing this year. Forza 3 at least is confirmed for this year but I don't know if the 250Gb HDD has been confirmed at all.

They're both possible of course, but not really more than hot air at this point.
Aye, anyone can add a product to Amazon. Is there as much reason to add one with this as there was with all the PS3 Slim rumours though?
 
If I were Microsoft, I'd focus more on Natal. Price drop is a rather primitive (though effective) way to build a brand and momentum. It has bad side effects. The number of units sold is less interesting for me because I see more and more people buying >1 units for themselves.

If I can do sexy stuff using Natal to own a large segment of new users (e.g., use 3D imaging to do a makeup game for women), then I may gain substantially more by combining the tech with aggressive pricing for Natal -- instead of for the basic box. A makeup app doesn't sell on fast movement, so a small amount of lag should be fine too.
 
Aye, anyone can add a product to Amazon. Is there as much reason to add one with this as there was with all the PS3 Slim rumours though?

It'd trigger a thread on NeoGAF that might in turn get picked up by joystiq/kotaku? Fuel for fan wars by being a direct response to the 250Gb GT5 Slim rumor?
 
The listing had no photo and a price of 279EUR (I saw it last night). And I thought we had established that anyone can add a product to Amazon. Didn't deepbrown say this sometime back?

It may even be true, but I think it's just rumor-baiting, as it came right after the rumor of a '250Gb Slim with GT5 for $399'. Which isn't that believable either -- we do have FCC filings for a 250Gb slim but there's been no word at all that GT5 is releasing this year. Forza 3 at least is confirmed for this year but I don't know if the 250Gb HDD has been confirmed at all.

They're both possible of course, but not really more than hot air at this point.

The Engadget writeup that Joystiq links and is the source, mentions however something about an ASIN# on the 250 GB Elite listing, which is some sort of retail identifying number I'm sure. I'm not sure if it would be possible for somebody to fake that in a user listing or what, but it lends more credibility.

Edit:
Amazon Germany, who previously listed the PlayStation 3 Slim a good 20 days before the official debut (it still has the same Amazon Stock Identification Number as it did when leaked), has gone ahead and posted a new Xbox 360 model, ASIN in tow, with a 250GB HDD, two wireless controllers, and Forza Motorsport 3.

Anyways as the rumors note, Forza 3 doesn't release till late October, so we could be waiting a while, but I suspect this is true.

And yeah, there are the FCC filings for the 250GB slim. If they bring that out at 299 MS is back to square one. However if they intend it to be a 399 SKU, then I think MS can get an advantage there at 299.

These hard drives are getting so big, 90% of that space is never going to get used by most users, if not more. It's a little silly.
 
These hard drives are getting so big, 90% of that space is never going to get used by most users, if not more. It's a little silly.

I have to disagree, for the following reasons:

- game related installs. I just read that Forza 3, that we already knew would release on two discs, is going to allow you to install some or all content of the second disc to the harddrive (you can actually choose a number of components to install or not), and you'll only need your first disc to access that additional content. Halo ODST is apparently going to do the exact same thing.

- full game installs. As we all know, you can install a game on your HDD now. I installed Fable 2 just last week, and it took 6.6GB. Makes Fable 2 run beautifully and the sound of the 360 bearable.

- full game downloads. As you know the most recent update introduced full game downloads. There's a whole bunch of games you can download, like Mass Effect, Burnout Paradise, Rockstar Table Tennis, etc. I would definitely have bought Table Tennis and maybe Mass Effect, if my HDD had been bigger. But I have a 20GB. I can only just about afford to install one game to the HDD which means if I want to do that with a different game, I'll have to get rid of Fable 2 first, and a downloaded game is even harder to just erase and reinstall all the time.

- Arcade games getting bigger. Shadow Complex for instance is over 800MB. And they are also download games, so tend to stay on your harddrive.

- Demos: download a few demoes, you'll have to delete them again all the time, because they often take 1GB or more.

- Game updates and DLC: games like Burnout Paradise, even if you have a disc version, if they need an update that will often download a fair bit of data to your HDD (up to 800MB)

- Video content you buy or rent online from Live takes space.

And that's assuming you don't use your 360 to store any meaningful quantities of MP3s (to use for the in-game soundtracks), Photos or Videos.

So not only do I think a 120GB drive should definitely be a baseline size, as we're seeing now for both consoles, but there is definitely going to be a need for 250GB and more. There aren't many people now who really need it, but there will be a fair number soon. Heck I think I'll have 250GB on my PS3 by early next year, and I still occasionally delete demos and don't play many games that actually need an install (MGS4 and GTA4 are the only games I have that do an install). Thankfully I have a 320GB HDD, so I should be safe for a while. ;)

Anyway, I'm willing to bet that we'll see both a 250GB Elite (or maybe even a bigger one) and a 250GB add-on HDD drive for existing models.
 
I think Arcade will stay. When Natal comes, it will probably be included in current Arcade model at the current price point (199$), and they will drop down the current Arcade to 150$ until they are completely sold out (and I am sure they can sell almost all inventory at that price point pretty quickly). Probably, the updated Arcade will match Wii's price next year, and with all the HD bells-and-whistles on it. If they manage to bundle with a killer game for Natal (like Wii Sports), it has a very good chance to move it.

I am still expecting they will replace the current Elite's with 250 gig Elite's. That's how MS had fighted with PS3 at 399$ price level, and it seems that will be the case until the end of next year at 299$ price level.

Next year is gonna be interesting. I think they will re-launch 360 with Natal (possibly with also reworked form-factor) as Sony is relaunching PS3 with Slim this year.

And, I agree with Arwin. If you start to add up things, there is no way 20 Gig is enough. The Arcade is not restricted to 50-150 Mb limits, there are tons of digital contents, and I believe we will see more and more of the multi-disk games as we move on. For this, 60 gig can barely make it all for those, and 120 gig will be just ok. So, the more, the better ;)

Btw, do you guys really think GT5 is ready for a release before the end of this year. I saw the damage modeling, and it looks so unrealistic in the videos compared to what Forza 3 offers. I think it would be better for Sony to wait a few more months, until it is 100% ready. The graphics engine and other racing features are already so good, so it would be shame if they release the game in this state.
 
I was about to open a new thread about an hypothetical 360 slim and also what will be Ms next moves but I gave up as I don't think it's worse.
Anyway I spent some time writing the thing so I'll do a premiere I'll auto quote a post that as never been posted :LOL:
liolio said:
There has been a lot of reactions lately to Sony introduction of the PS3 slim as well as its price cut and to MS new pricing strategy.
Following this announcement we read quiet some rumours (logically dismissed by MS) about a 360 slim as well. We even read about even more hypothetical PS3.5 and XBOX560 (funny it should be 540 but I guess the guy doesn't know how to count under a million... :LOL: ). To make it clear I don't believe that the ps560 thing will happen, thus I won't discuss it. What is more interesting on the other is the xbox slim, I pretty sure that rumours we read were based on thin air but I think that there is no point in dismissing that this has to happen.
While not badly threatened in the short term, I think that Ms is somehow in a tight spot. In Japan late PS3 price drop along with upcoming titles as FFXIII, GT5, GOW3 should allow to almost wipe the floor with the 360. OK Japan market is no longer as relevant as it was. In Europe the trend is likely to reverse in favor of Sony, I don't expect a tsunami but in the long term without proper reaction sales will add up. In Us the situation is less clear as Ms is in a pretty comfortable situation but I still expect an impact say in the long run.
Overall when the economy will go better and that the video game market will grow again Sony will be in a good position to steal from them a consistent part of this growth.
Ms has Natal coming for fall 2010, to me it's their trump card, if it works it can be the new wii and we have to consider the thing come to the PC realm as well. Natal is likely to cost some money, most likely more than a ps eye+ wand for example. For a wide spread adoption and if MS will want to expand consistently their market share they need the 360+natal to be an affordable combo.
In the more traditional gaming space they also need to be cheaper if they want to reach more costumers.
In the same time Microsoft upped by 20 euros the arcade pack price and by 10 euros their "complete" pack. Doesn't make that much sense, Ms just gave up on aggressively pursuing market shares. To me it's pretty clear that microsoft expect the actual economic climate to leverage the effect of such a politic. In the same I suspect that are preparing their next move. It may looks like Microsoft is placing profitability first but I don't think. Arcade may have been a loss leader this is not my point (back to this later). I think Microsoft try to save some bucks because they know they will have to make significant R&D efforts within the next months.
I would not be surprised if Ms doesn't make any aggressive moves till at least H2 2010. They will let Sony gain market share and mind-share. It's risky business as by this time early changes economic climate we're seeing may have made their way till "real" economy (read employment) they can't afford to be too late. I would not be surprised if results for the next quarters are bad and Ms CE division post losses and by the time Ms makes its moves Sony may have close in by at the very least an half of the actual gap.
In order to make the most of the economic up take likely to happen within 2010 and give Natal a good chance the 360 has to go through a complete redesign. By the time Ms moves they should put themselves in the position to ship the arcade @129€/$, the Natal pack (arcade + natal)@179€/$, and the "complete pack" (arcade+natal+HDD)@ 239euros (old PRO pack price in Europe) without significant loss. It's a serious challenge. That's why I think Ms upped the price in Europe to amortize even a little the loss the division will go through in the nexts quarters/year (as even after new revision is introduced, they will face significant marketing expanse for their relaunch or Natal launch depending on how you read it.
I think the R&D efforts will be significant for various reasons. They can't afford another fiasco ala RroD while taking an critical corner in the history of their division (if taken successfully competitors may suffer, that's only my opinion feel free to disagree). So they will double check everything. They have to shrink every single part of their actual system, CPU should be port to a 45nm SOI process, Edram to a 65nm process (currently 80nm) and last but not least the GPU. The GPU is problematic case if they shrink it properly using one of the TMSC 40nm process (I would favor their low power/less dense process) I wonder if Microsoft will be able to fit a 128 bits wide bus in it.
A succesfull implementation of xenos @40nm could be really tiny. Original size was 182mm²,using a 0.6 factor that previous shrink fail to reach the chip could be ~70mm², using 0.7 factor ~90mm².
Microsoft may have to use GDDR5 on a 64bits or 96bits, not too bad as GDDR5 may be cheaper by this time but it also imply a rework of the memory controller (not too mention a lot of tests to make sure the new system is fully compatible with earlier systems). They may have to consider paying ATI a little more...
This will cost Ms a lot of effort and money, I expect them to enter a "sleep mode" for at least 3/4 of a year from now. Obviously they have been working on cost reduction all along just I think effort will intensify.

Speculation mode pushed even further... (sorry)
I would like the thing to be significantly tinier with all the chips being only one package and trading the bulky DVD player from something from the laptop space. I would expect something like a big Wii with the Hdd used as "stand" (as it would be mostly wider than the system putting it on top is not a possibility). I would favor an external PSU for minimal encumbrance).
 
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Arcade+Natal has to sell for $200 or less. Natal's cost of entry is crucial for MS. As soon as Natal was announced for 2H2010, I figured that MS will save its aggressive moves until that time. That precludes a big price cut in 2009. I expect MS is willing to swallow a mediocre holiday performance for the first time, in order to set up Natal for the following year.
 
It is easy to see that the Arcade is here to stay. As long as XBox Live Silver penetration is lower than 100% (and I'm sure it is much lower than that), it means that there are people who have no use for the HDD at all. Therefore, a lower priced HDD-less 360 would represent the best value for them.

As a power user, it is easy to forget that some people don't use the "full potential" of their console, in the case of the 360: XBLA, Marketplace, Video's, DLC, installs, etc. But for many technically less inclined, just turning on the console and playing a game is an achievement in itself. :) Personally, my 360 feels neutered whenever I don't connect it to Xbox Live. But I'm sure for many this is not the case.
Um, what does XBL Silver have to do with it? Silver users can access all the disk using stuff that Gold folks can. They can download arcade games and videos and game add-ons and xbox compat (that required HDD too).
What don't/wont they have access to? Netflix, (no HDD required), online gaming (no HDD reuired) and Facebook/Twitter it appears, which does not seem to have a HDD requirement as far as we've heard.

No, the folks that don't really need a HDD are the 40% or so of users that have never connected their device to the net.

I read an article today where they said that the new 1080p streaming video marketplace will not require a hard drive either.
 
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