Xbox 360: First Look at Final Hardware

[Tap In]

These have to be wrong.

you are correct re:

1080i is possible

 

[scificube]

funny, how everyone seems to think DoF is bandwidth intensive for the 360, it may very well be, but keep this in mind, gamecube does DoF 100% computationally for free because of the way it handles textures in cache . perhaps microsoft yet again fails to understand efficiency over raw power

I'm not saying DoF can't be done. I find it odd that it "can't" be done along with AA given how AA is supposed to be used freely and without fear. With 256GB/s of bandwith in the eDram I can't imagine that's where a limitation would arise. I then look to the logic portion of the daughter die. From what I understand it's a good amount of it in being able to perform z-tests, AA etc. I would have thought MS and ATI would have some extra logic on the die so that AA could be used AND other things could be done at the same time.

I am not convinced yet this is not the case. I'm waiting to see how this plays out. Xenos is so elegant and intelligent in it's design that I'm having some difficulty seeing this would be overlooked or intentionally designed.

 

[scatteh316]

So it looks like the its the logic itself thats the root of the problem.
What about HDR??? i cant remember seeing hardly any 360 games that have it implemnted.
Or maybe its just a case of PS2 all over again, DEV's need to get used to the hardware.

 

[Titanio]

So it looks like the its the logic itself thats the root of the problem.
What about HDR??? i cant remember seeing hardly any 360 games that have it implemnted.
Or maybe its just a case of PS2 all over again, DEV's need to get used to the hardware.

I don't think it's clear yet what the issue is, if there is one. This is pretty speculative stuff. I'm personally more suspicious of the tiling, but on the logic side obviously the more you do, the more time it's going to take (even if you have all the bw in the world). I don't know how big of a deal it is for the logic, computationally, to do AA+HDR+other effects. It might be a combination of things.

As ERP said earlier, for titles coming out soon, every little bit may count as far as keeping the framerate smooth goes, and it could be a matter of the straw breaking the camel's back. Hopefully it wouldn't remain that way.

 

[persiannight]

Why are we getting all worked up over some little article that surfaced on the net. Let's wait until Tuesday and Wednesday.

 

[Master-Mold]

So it looks like the its the logic itself thats the root of the problem.
What about HDR??? i cant remember seeing hardly any 360 games that have it implemnted.
Or maybe its just a case of PS2 all over again, DEV's need to get used to the hardware.

PGR3 defiantely does.

I also believe Kameo, PDZ, CoD2, and Oblivion do as well.

 

[scatteh316]

PGR3 defiantely does.

I also believe Kameo, PDZ, CoD2, and Oblivion do as well.

Kameo?? every video interview i have seen its always been called light bloom and not HDR.

Whats going on

Is that FP16 mode that 360 use's any good compared to the other version???

 

[[maven]]

On another note, 1080i clearly listed:
http://www.xbox.com/en-US/xbox360/factsheet.htm

So maybe the translation/reporting is a little off...

I can vouch for the translation not being off...

That said, the fact-sheet expressively mentions

The information contained in this fact sheet relates to a prerelease product that may be substantially modified before its first commercial release. Accordingly, the information may not accurately describe or reflect the product when first commercially released. This fact sheet is provided for informational purposes only, and Microsoft makes no warranties, express or implied, with respect to the fact sheet or the information contained in it.

And the article is from the most renowned German print magazine. That doesn't mean they don't make mistakes, but usually they are very reliable.

We'll see at launch I guess, but personally I wouldn't miss 1080i - as it was going to be upscaled 720p anyway (at least for now) one might as well let the display do the upscaling.

 

[expletive]

I can vouch for the translation not being off...

That said, the fact-sheet expressively mentions

And the article is from the most renowned German print magazine. That doesn't mean they don't make mistakes, but usually they are very reliable.

We'll see at launch I guess, but personally I wouldn't miss 1080i - as it was going to be upscaled 720p anyway (at least for now) one might as well let the display do the upscaling.

APologies on the insinuation on the tranlation.

Anyway, my understand is that you dont render 1080i, or any interlaced signal. Arent all signalls progressive and then converted to interlaced by the Scaler chip?

J

 

[J_Saint]

Could this final hardware be for developers not consumers? How different are the dev kits compared to the retail units we get?

 

[MightyHedgehog]

We'll see at launch I guess, but personally I wouldn't miss 1080i - as it was going to be upscaled 720p anyway (at least for now) one might as well let the display do the upscaling.

But that display-based upscaling in many HDTVs leads to lag in the output and varies in the quality of the scaling itself...better to leave the scaling to a dedicated unit in the system to do the job. By doing that, the possiblity of HD-lag seen in many displays is circumvented.

 

[ecliptic]

Here is a quote from a Microsoft employee that hangs around GA.

I don't know about this one, because AA is a manditory requirement for all games.

I can set my dash to 1080i

 

[Acert93]

PGR3 defiantely does.

Yes.

I also believe Kameo, PDZ, CoD2, and Oblivion do as well.

CoD2 is a definitive no. Who has seen enough of PDZ to know anything? Oblivion would be a yes it appears (don't quote me on that). Kameo...

We'll see at launch I guess, but personally I wouldn't miss 1080i - as it was going to be upscaled 720p anyway (at least for now) one might as well let the display do the upscaling.

1080i HDTVs can scale a 720p image. Yet 1080i is supported by the hardware and is in the spec, so who knows what is going on here.

Most launch games don't go gold for another 4-6 weeks, but it would be surely odd if the dashboard did not include 1080i support--especially since it is supporting every other oddball HDTV resolution.

Improved upon Xbox, but no "killer features". Users of the Xbox 1 shouldn't throw it away, as there is no guarantee for compatible games and all their save-games would be lost. Home entertainment users can use the console as progressive DVD player, but not for HD or DivX (or need to buy Media Center PC).

Not news. And the last time I checked DVDs were really popular and a progressive scan one would be a nice upgrade, especially for a 2ndary home unit. No HD media out and DivX? If you have the media you have something to play it on. I personally don't know anyone with DivX material.

The new games have more detailed gfx, but whether that is enough to convince Xbox fans to buy it is questionable. That is dependent on the available games, where fresh ideas are needed. For casual gamers 400 Euro is a lot of money, but the 300 + 35 Euro version is not justifiable for the 65 Euro price difference. This market segment will hardly buy Xbox Arcade games when the same can be head for free on the internet for the PC. Thus it will be difficult for Microsoft to position the Xbox 360 between the PS3 for High-End enthusiasts and the Nintendo Revolution for casual gamers to expand their market share.

I don't know their reader base but it really does appear to be slanted considering the darth of information and the non-release status of the platform--and those it is comparing it to. How can they honestly compare it to the PS3 and Rev without knowing the games or prices?

Obviously they missed the press notes about Nintendo aiming for a slightly different demo graphic and being a "2nd console". To consider the Xbox 360 a "casual" device crunched between the two and the PS3 "High-End" without seeing finished games or the final hardware strikes me as an editor who already has an opinion on the subject. Since author is writing from a lot of conjecture I am surprised he did not mention Kutaragi's comments on price. He obviously has a right to a conclusion, but basing one without really knowing what he is comparing it to--yet doing so anyhow--kind of smacks of poor journalism.

As for Xbox Arcade, without MS pushing it I doubt it will be a factor. But a little known fact is "mothers" are one of the largest gaming demographics. Computers are expensive. If you can get little johnny a gaming machine and play solitair at night on the same machine--for only $300--well, that is not something to outright dismiss. Hardcore gamers and journalists are really idiots when it comes to things like Myst, Sims, Deer Hunter, etc. The fact the massive "mother" game market goes unrepresented and unnoticed by very few is evidence of this.

I don't see MS really angling for that market, but they are leaving the door open. Women are a significantly untapped market and I would not undervalue the possibility of getting consumers on a $300 machine compared to much more expensive PCs. I don't think that is MS's primary goal--especially in a time when the console is a loss leader and this market wont be contributing back with heavy game sales--but down the road I think MS and Sony will be looking at the female market MUCH more seriously.

 

[chachi]

As ERP said earlier, for titles coming out soon, every little bit may count as far as keeping the framerate smooth goes, and it could be a matter of the straw breaking the camel's back. Hopefully it wouldn't remain that way.

And since ERP is the only one in the thread who actually knows what he's talking about it's probably good to listen to him.

Xenos seems like a more complicated GPU to develop for than RSX, and it's certainly an architecture developers haven't had a chance to use before, so there's bound to be a learning curve as ERP suggested. MS might even have relaxed the standards a bit for launch titles (i.e. AA requirements) in order to ensure that frame rates are stable.

It's only a few more days until their big show so we should have some answers then, maybe.

 

[ecliptic]

I don't know why this is being discussed as if the article was fact when everyone knows its not.

I mean here's a German's response ont his.

The Author of this article from Heise.de is being discussed a lot of times cause of his biased opinion about everything from Microsoft. In earlier articles he claimed that the Xbox360 can't handle 4xFSAA @ 720p and the the GPU is like a 3 years old PC GPU. Don't put anything in this article. I am a user in their forum for a while. This site is an Pro Linux Anti Microsoft Site and also most of their users. Whats surprising most of the Linux ******s also claim that his articles on the Xbox360 are either technically wrong and totally biased. For example: In an earlier Xbox360 article he said Halo2 was an uninspired, not inovated FPS shooter and the Xbox360 must deliver more than Halo3 to get some attention.
Also, in every article he says that the RSX has more power and renders HDR in 128bit (by the way its 4x32bit). For every feature of the RSX he puts articles on the site but never talks about features of the Xenos GPU, like Global Illumination, procedural synthesis, MEMEXPORT and so on. In his eyes the PS3 and his graphic subsystem ist the system to wait for.

Forget everything regarding Microsoft from this site!

Greets from Germany

 

[ecliptic]

 

[Lysander]

Images from the recent nFactor2 demo were labelled as direct-captured from a devkit, but they are 1024x576, with 2xAA. Also, in NBA2K6 images in gamespot, 1024x576 images have no noticeable jaggies while other 720x1280 / 1280x720 images at IGN have jaggies all over, so internal resolution may be tweaked for these games to fit in eDRAM for higher frame rate.

EDIT: NFL -> NBA

I think this are all the same res pictures (in original); different websites just posted them in different format; same happened with ghost recon.

 

[Acert93]

I don't know why this is being discussed as if the article was fact when everyone knows its not.

I mean here's a German's response ont his.

I have no problem dismissing the site.

But ERP is knowledgable and very trustworthy--he is a developer working with the hardware. His comments are interesting, constructive, and quite instructive on the current state of affairs.

It will be interesting to see how this plays out at launch and, more importantly, in the next 6 months as devs actually get a handle on the hardware.

 

[Xenus]

I'm not going to dismiss an article because some body who seems by that post to be quite baised himself says the site is biased.

 

[blakjedi]

:
Originally Posted by Erzengel
blah blah blah...."but never talks about features of the Xenos GPU, like Global Illumination, procedural synthesis, MEMEXPORT and so on. In his eyes the PS3 and his graphic subsystem ist the system to wait for.

Forget everything regarding Microsoft from this site!

Greets from Germany

Global illumination on Xenos?!?!