x86 processors and console

I will make my paragraph a sentance longer next time to add even more emphasis :p
Sorry, I was just trying emphasize even more how incredibly important this was. You also wrote this:
Joshua Luna said:
(2) Intel and AMD are very tapped in regards to fab supply/demand. They sell all they can make. It costs Intel and AMD ~$40 to make a CPU. They in turn sell these to mass wholesale retailers anywhere from $150 to $1000. Considering they are binning their chips (best chips are sorted as $1000 CPUs, chips that hit lower frequencies become the $150 chips, and everywhere inbetween) they make a HUGE amount of profit. They have a lot of R&D, fab maintenance, marketing, etc to pay, but that $1000 processor cost them $40 to make. On the console side MS would want to give them razor thin markup -- probably much less than the 30-40% markup GPU makers make. Considering the very high end of Xbox 360 projected sales would be 60M units in 5-6 years they are looking at 10M units at very low margins. Intel and AMD ship about 200M PCs a year at high margins. As a business, do you cut out the 10M high profit PC chips for 10M low profit console chips?
Which I don't think is very important at all. If the console maker owns the IP, they can just go get their chip fabbed elsewhere - IBM, TSMC, whoever. It's still all about owning the IP. Granted, I don't dispute it's accuracy - Intel and AMD very capacity constrained (especially AMD) and console chips are very low margin in comparison, but if you own the IP it doesn't especially matter.

That, and I just like the sound of my own voice. :)
 
Maybe now that AMD (and Intel?) wants to go the Cell way by adding small customized chips to the cpu instead of just keep on adding ''big'' cores a x86 based console is more likely? because with such a design in wont be such a big effort to create a custom chip for a console.

On a side note, what will the future of console cpu's be? console cpu's will become more and more complex and I doubt devs really like it that each 5 years they can more or less trow away everything they have and start all over for the new architecture. Sony is already trying to do that with the Cell and x86 would be usefull for that to right? For Nintendo and MS it will be alot harder to just make the same cpu faster because they wernt designed for that.
 
The absolute most important reason is owning the IP. Others have touched on this point, but failed to emphasize how important this is. Any console maker needs to own the rights to their processor design so that they can cost reduce later in the lifecycle, via die shrinks or integrating chips together. For example, look at the PS2: it has a PSX chipset embedded in it for backwards compatibility, and introduced a smaller (and far cheaper to produce) PSTwo later in its lifecycle. Neither would have been possible were it not for Sony owning the IP. MS learned this lesson the hard way with Xbox; they actually had a great processor in it (733 MHz P-III/Celeron, IIRC), but because they didn't own the IP they couldn't cost reduce it and they were constantly forced into difficult negotiations with Intel over production of the chip.

x86 isn't actually very good as an ISA; it's dated, clunky, and comes with a lot of legacy baggage. The only reason to use x86 is that you can use an off-the-shelf processor with great performance (as well as very mature compiler support). However, the down side of an off-the-shelf processor is as stated above; you don't own the IP rights so you can't control cost reductions and integration later. MS is the only one to have tried it in recent years, but that was because they were in a rush. After their experience, you can bet that no one will try it again for a long time.
But with Xenon, Microsoft own the IP and it can modify also the architecture?

It means that IBM don't own the IP of the x360 cpu? I don't understand How much freedom Microsoft have with his CPU if IBM built it on our project.
 
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Why there're so few console (one I remember..Xbox) using x86 processor technology? What are the difference that make company choose PowerPC one, RISC or MIPS architecture?

Bye.

Well x86 CPU's have high costs and low performance compared to their PowerPC counterparts.
The only thing x86 CPU's have got going for them is extreme simplicity due to their OOOex nature.
 
Well x86 CPU's have high costs and low performance compared to their PowerPC counterparts.
The only thing x86 CPU's have got going for them is extreme simplicity due to their OOOex nature.

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Cheers
 
Well x86 CPU's have high costs and low performance compared to their PowerPC counterparts.
The only thing x86 CPU's have got going for them is extreme simplicity due to their OOOex nature.
<sarcasm>Which is why when Apple was still using PPC, they had the lowest cost and highest performing machines around.</sarcasm>

I don't think this is even remotely true. x86 processors have extremely low cost and high performance, particuarly per-watt (increasingly important these days). And they most certainly do not have "extreme simplicity". In fact, PPC is a simpler ISA as it's pure RISC, and implementing OOOe on it would be easier than on x86 because you don't have decode everything into micro-ops first. As already pointed out, as an ISA x86 is really not very good; it's just that it has 30 years worth of microarchitecture design behind it, which is where all it's performance comes from.

Can you give an example of what you're talking about?
 
But with Xenon, Microsoft own the IP and it can modify also the architecture?

It means that IBM don't own the IP of the x360 cpu? I don't understand How much freedom Microsoft have with his CPU if IBM built it on our project.

Basically they own the design, and can have them produced by anyone they choose or make modifications (say integrate it with some other device later).
MIPS used to be the only option if you wanted this level of flexibility, since there are no longer any competitive MIPS cores, the only option is Power.

If you go with intel, you are buying commodity parts that may be price competitive today, but that may make it difficult to cost reduce the system later.
 
Why there're so few console (one I remember..Xbox) using x86 processor technology? What are the difference that make company choose PowerPC one, RISC or MIPS architecture?

Bye.

x86 processors are not cheap. Unlike other companies, Intel and AMD won't license out their designs so you have the higher cost of buying directly from them. They also typically run hotter than you'd want in a console, though that's not so true anymore. At the same time, the high performance of x86 processors is often directly linked to the advanced mass scale fab techniques amd and Intel use, you couldn't farm that out to TSMC and get the same results in cost or performance. Using an x86 chip, means you lock yourself into the pc distribution channel, and you'll be like apple and have to pretty much produce a pc-lite.

Supply limitation - x86 processors head to the more lucrative pc market first, and since there's only one supplier for the chip you're using, tough luck if you need to make more consoles that quarter. Additionally, whatever model you're using is likely to become outdated/discontinued and it will cost you significantly to have more produced, and you most likely won't benefit from die shrinks.

And from what I've seen, there appear to be hidden costs to the x86 architecture. No small form factor x86 board is as clean and simple as what I've seen done with powerpc, risc, or mips. It seems there's always at least a few more capacitors and chips (for the bios?) than say...a gamecube.

On the console processors IBM have done both customised design and used their high speed process. This is why Microsoft's ability to switch manufacturers is somewhat questionable, there's very few companies who have a process that fast, companies like UMC or TSMC may simply not be capable of building Xenon, even Intel would have difficulties - at least at 90nm, it'll get easier at 65nm.

Since IBM and AMD share fab tech, maybe AMD could produce some.

x86 will wallop the console chips on SPECInt but it isn't useful for games.

There's yet to be anything that shows that a PowerPC processor will outperform a modern x86 processor in games, assuming the presence of a GPU. x86 was more passed over for cost per performance, and not just flat out performance. (though if the 360 does well, it's possibly microsoft could get a sweet deal from intel next time, but I'd imagine they'd want to stick with IBM who's basically sold themselves to the console market at this point) I'd say chips already exist in the x86 world that will outperform cell or xenon by a lot in most circumstances, while cost of production to AMD and Intel is at worst comparable to cell, and probably cheaper. It's the cost to anyone else looking to sell a console at cost that would be a problem. (I suppose that's the deathknell of ever seeing an x86 processor in a console again, short of AMD or Intel going in themselves, Apple seems to have gotten both cheaper and faster from going Intel, but Apple already sold for very high margins)

MIPS used to be the only option if you wanted this level of flexibility, since there are no longer any competitive MIPS cores, the only option is Power.

There's ARM, but that's really only an option for Nintendo, and even then it's probably be a struggle to produce an ARM chip that can match the chip in the Wii. Integer performance would probably be doable, but I doubt that a fpu coprocessor would match Broadway while still being cost effective. Plus, it'd kill backwards compatibility with gamecube, and more importantly nintendo's established dev tools. It'll be interesting to see if the cpu ever goes on die with the gpu in the wii.
 
Sure, that's why Apple switched...

Has it ever occured to you they might have switched because the x86 is more simple?
There isn't a single x86 out there right now (including the QX6700) that can match the power of the Dual Core G5.

IOex is just much harder and needs a lot of optimising which with a OS like OS/X takes a **** load of work considering multiple system configurations.
 
Has it ever occured to you they might have switched because the x86 is more simple?
There isn't a single x86 out there right now (including the QX6700) that can match the power of the Dual Core G5.

IOex is just much harder and needs a lot of optimising which with a OS like OS/X takes a **** load of work considering multiple system configurations.

Can you give me some examples of such a lead?

I think your numbers are a bit way,way off.

There may be some narrow examples, but in the vast majority of cases I don't see that being true at all.
 
Has it ever occured to you they might have switched because the x86 is more simple?
But it's not more simple. As I've already stated above, the PPC ISA is simpler than x86 (Hint: the R in RISC stands for Reduced, the C in CISC stands for Complex). But even if you're talking microarchitecture and not ISA, it still stands; neither one is simple in that case.
There isn't a single x86 out there right now (including the QX6700) that can match the power of the Dual Core G5.
I find that to be a very dubious statement.
IOex is just much harder and needs a lot of optimising which with a OS like OS/X takes a **** load of work considering multiple system configurations.
Considering both the G5's CPU (PPC 970) and every modern x86 processor are all OOO, what does in-order execution have to do with anything?
 
PowerPCs have long been tuned for high vector throughput, it's no coincidence Apple always used to pick vector heavy benchmarks when they used PowerPC, they beat x86 designs at that sort of workload. Xenon and Cell are a more extreme version of the same thing so will give x86 an even bigger beating.

x86 will wallop the console chips on SPECInt but it isn't useful for games.

well, quake 4 shows any recent x86 core absolutely destroys a xenon core (yes quake 4 on x360 was rushed and multithreading doesn't bring much with it). so maybe the scalar performance (including FP) is quite useful afterall.
 
well, quake 4 shows any recent x86 core absolutely destroys a xenon core (yes quake 4 on x360 was rushed and multithreading doesn't bring much with it). so maybe the scalar performance (including FP) is quite useful afterall.

So a processor designed for high performance single threaded scalar code runs it well whereas a process not designed for it doesn't. That's sort of obvious don't you think?
 
the very first 32-bit videogame console, Fujitsu FM-Towns Marty (1991) used an Intel X86 processor. the first version used a 386, the second version used a 486.
 
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